World Cup 2010 Draw

[Craig_H]

1 Argentina
2 Brazil
3 Italy
4 Spain
5 Germany
6 Czech Republic
7 France
8 Portugal
9 Netherlands
10 Croatia
11 Greece
12 England
13 Romania
14 Scotland
15 Mexico
16 Turkey
17 Colombia
18 Bulgaria
19 USA
20 Nigeria
21 Paraguay
22 Russia
23 Poland
24 Sweden
24 Cameroon
26 Israel
27 Uruguay
28 Norway
29 Ukraine
30 Serbia

Or put it another way out of the top 30 countries in the world - which European Teams below Greece are "better"?

Is that the FIFA world rankings, you're using?

*snigger*

[Craig_H]

I agree that the seedings for the 2008 finals were a farce, but that's what you're likely to get when you have 2 poor home nations

The solution is to seed based on quality, as opposed to who happens to be the host.

[Rich]

Is that the FIFA world rankings, you're using?

*snigger*

Of course - how are you ranking teams then?

Regardless as to whether the way it's created could be tweaked, it's "officially" the best way we have of ranking teams.

[Craig_H]

The FIFA rankings are a joke though mate.

[Rich]

They might not be ideal - but you have to have "something" to quantify their position in relation to other teams - it's the only way!

We'd find much worse scenarios if we were to lock a group of footballing "luminaries" into a room every year to decide a rank of countries - it would never work.

[johnp]

But you said a minute ago, you didnt think they were better than us? Which is it?

Greece might need to be qualifying virtually every time there's a major tournement and consistently (over 3 tournements) reach the last 8 - then you could maybe say they're one of the top 8 sides.

How did they get on at the last world cup, for example...?

So no structure, just opinion. That'll work.

Whether I think (with my rose tinted glass on) that Liverpool were better than Everton that year has no bearing on the fact that they finished higher than us, and deserved to be in the CL. But I guess it'd be nicer to take your stance and not give it to them because they're not a top 4 team.

I'm tired of this and on my lunch................

[Maestro]

The solution is to seed based on quality, as opposed to who happens to be the host.

Yes, but you should have focused on Austria and Switzerland earlier on in the thread - Greece deserve to be top seeds. It's the other two that don't.

[johnp]

They might not be ideal - but you have to have "something" to quantify their position in relation to other teams - it's the only way!

We'd find much worse scenarios if we were to lock a group of footballing "luminaries" into a room every year to decide a rank of countries - it would never work.

[Craig_H]

So no structure, just opinion. That'll work.

Whether I think (with my rose tinted glass on) that Liverpool were better than Everton that year has no bearing on the fact that they finished higher than us, and deserved to be in the CL. But I guess it'd be nicer to take your stance and not give it to them because they're not a top 4 team.

I'm tired of this and on my lunch................

I didnt say not give it to them, did i? I said they werent better.

As for it being 'just opinion' - you fecking ASKED my opinion, so i obviously gave it...duh at me then...

[Craig_H]

Yes, but you should have focused on Austria and Switzerland earlier on in the thread - Greece deserve to be top seeds. It's the other two that don't.

Well there's no doubt that austria and switzerland shouldnt be seeded.

But as ive said, the top 4 seeds should be the best 4 teams...by that criteria, greece shouldnt be seeded either.

[Maestro]

Well there's no doubt that austria and switzerland shouldnt be seeded.

But as ive said, the top 4 seeds should be the best 4 teams...by that criteria, greece shouldnt be seeded either.

You earlier said it was a joke that they are there as seeds. It's not. The seeding is based on their performances. Also the fact that they are the holders. Their performances merited their inclusion.

Unless you can come up with a better seeding system, this thread is just going to go around in circles.

[Craig_H]

You earlier said it was a joke that they are there as seeds. It's not. The seeding is based on their performances. Also the fact that they are the holders. Their performances merited their inclusion.

Unless you can come up with a better seeding system, this thread is just going to go around in circles.

Based on their performance FOUR years ago.

They couldnt even qualify for the last world cup ffs. They're tripe!

[Maestro]

Based on their performance FOUR years ago.

They couldnt even qualify for the last world cup ffs. They're tripe!

That's because the tournament is only held every FOUR years.
Everyone knows the holders are seeds for the next tournament. It's always been that way. And it's fair, because they were the last team to win it.

It doesn't matter how good they are, they have earned the right - on the pitch - to be seeds for this tournament. IMO, you're being unnecessarily hard on Greece because they don't play the brand of football you like.

Can you not accept that there is a persuasive footballing argument for them to be seeds as they are holders? I bet if Portugal had won the final in 2004, you'd have no problems with them as seeds.

Why focus on Greece and not Austria and Switzerland?
Their choice as seeds is purely logistical...

[Dhav]

The Euro 2008 "seedings" are not that at all, not in any real sense. Ranking teams on the basis that two of them are playing at home, a team that won a competition 4 years ago and another team that was best in all the qualifying groups does not seem to be very equitable at all. I'd have much preferred to have seen a similar system as employed for World Cup qualifying, which IMO seems to seed the teams much more equitably and is a much better reflection of those respective teams' qualities, capabilites and recent success.

As for making Greece a top seed out of 9 for World Cup qualifying, I still don't know who is ranked lower that DJS thinks deserves a higher seeding than Greece.

I think Greece under Rehhaggel (ie since 2001-2) have consistently performed better than England. May I remind you of the 2-2 at Old Trafford where Greece were clearly the better team and led twice, and it took last minute heroics from Beckham to salvage a draw and confirm qualification for the 2002 World Cup?

Since then Greece and England have qualified for the same number of tournaments (2 each, Greece the Euros 2004&2008, England the Euro in 2004 & WC 2006), the difference is Greece has beaten a lot of world class opposition in that time (Spain, Portugal (x2), France, Czechs) and in doing so won a torunmanent. On the other hand, England seem to lose against the first decent opposition they play, when it matters most. Greece also qualified for this tournament at a canter, with points and games to spare.

DJS, your comments about Greece fluking the 2004 tournament are nonsense in the extreme. Greece were the most effective and efficient team there. Do you remember the Purtuguese, Spanish, French etc having chance after chance and failing to put them away? No. Did any of those countries outplay Greece and embarrass them? No. Even the most attacking team in the tournament, the Czechs, really struggled to break them down. The only team that ripped them apart were Russia, in a meaningless group game. They may have bored the pants off you, but so what? They played to their strengths and that's what won them the torunament.

Seitaridis plays for Ateltico Madrid, there's a few players in the squad who play in Germany (Charisteas, Amanatidis, Kyrgiakos), and Gekas is probably world class and was the bundesliga top scorer last season. I'm not saying Greece will take the tournament by storm, although I expect them to get through the group, but they do have talent and they deserve more respect than DJS is giving them.

[Maestro]

The Euro 2008 "seedings" are not that at all, not in any real sense. Ranking teams on the basis that two of them are playing at home, a team that won a competition 4 years ago and another team that was best in all the qualifying groups does not seem to be very equitable at all. I'd have much preferred to have seen a similar system as employed for World Cup qualifying, which IMO seems to seed the teams much more equitably and is a much better reflection of those respective teams' qualities, capabilites and recent success.

As for making Greece a top seed out of 9 for World Cup qualifying, I still don't know who is ranked lower that DJS thinks deserves a higher seeding than Greece.

I think Greece under Rehhaggel (ie since 2001-2) have consistently performed better than England. May I remind you of the 2-2 at Old Trafford where Greece were clearly the better team and led twice, and it took last minute heroics from Beckham to salvage a draw and confirm qualification for the 2002 World Cup?

Since then Greece and England have qualified for the same number of tournaments (2 each, Greece the Euros 2004&2008, England the Euro in 2004 & WC 2006), the difference is Greece has beaten a lot of world class opposition in that time (Spain, Portugal (x2), France, Czechs) and in doing so won a torunmanent. On the other hand, England seem to lose against the first decent opposition they play, when it matters most. Greece also qualified for this tournament at a canter, with points and games to spare.

DJS, your comments about Greece fluking the 2004 tournament are nonsense in the extreme. Greece were the most effective and efficient team there. Do you remember the Purtuguese, Spanish, French etc having chance after chance and failing to put them away? No. Did any of those countries outplay Greece and embarrass them? No. Even the most attacking team in the tournament, the Czechs, really struggled to break them down. The only team that ripped them apart were Russia, in a meaningless group game. They may have bored the pants off you, but so what? They played to their strengths and that's what won them the torunament.

Seitaridis plays for Ateltico Madrid, there's a few players in the squad who play in Germany (Charisteas, Amanatidis, Kyrgiakos), and Gekas is probably world class and was the bundesliga top scorer last season. I'm not saying Greece will take the tournament by storm, although I expect them to get through the group, but they do have talent and they deserve more respect than DJS is giving them.

Great post.