Official Euro 2008 thread

[Shaggy]

Aragones - the old racist - was very astute last night. The way the media are creaming over Fabregas it's like he decided to bring himself on and change the shape of the team. You make an excellent point about how they handled Arshavin.

I couldn't believe how little the pundits/commentators made of Aragones' tactics last night - I felt he out-thought Hiddink, which of course is no mean feat. As well as being technically expert, they were tactically very clever indeed and Aragones takes all the credit.

The daft racist.

[Imy]

I totally accept the fact that the overhyping was inevitable I just wondered if some people who were calling for us to sign him no matter what had changed their minds. He lit up those two games in a way no other player has any others which justifies praise within this tournament for certain - not sure how it reflects his overall ability more generally though.

Spain deserve a great deal of praise. Although I have just listened to the Guardian podcast and Rapael Honigstein was making the point that they did nothing really different and Hiddink who had been praised as a tactical genius had no answer. He is obviously a very good manager but I would agree with his more general point too which was that people have been swept along to say people and teams are great in this tournament largely because it has been so fun to watch. Actually I think large parts of it such as defending have been of much lower standard than say the Champions League.

I'd still sign Arshavin, i'd base this on having seen him in the previous matches and play outstandingly for Zenith. Every player has a poor game, Torres has certainly not performed like how he has for us (but i mainly attribute that to the way Aragones has Spain set up, he doesn't get the best out of Torres, Iniesta or Xavi)

You are also correct about the defending, it has been poorer then say the Champions League (which i believe is the most difficult tournament to win), too many mistakes, the aristocrats of European Football (Italy and France) who historically are very solid are now creaking due to the end of their golden generation of footballers.

[dww]

I think this tournament Aragones has got the best out of those players - in terms of what they have done for the team on the whole. Both Torres and Villa have run defences into the ground. They haven't necessarily got the goals they deserved but they have got their team to the final - I know hat I would rather have achieved.

I will be the first to admit that I haven't seen anything of Zenit really (a couple of UEFA games) so I wouldn't know hoe he has played for them but have they played any top class opposition when you have seen them? Also what do you think of his mentality in general - does he keep going when the chips are down?

[jonesie]

My team of the tournament:

The real team of the tournament (i.e. one that hasn't got two left backs)

Casillas
Anyukov
Ooijer
Puyol
Zhirkov
Sneijder
Deco
Senna
Arshavin
Pavlyuchenko
Villa

Rest of squad:
Boruc
Van der Sar
Lahm
Simunic
Modric
Semih
Altintop
Ballack
Van Nistelrooy
Moutinho
Fabregas
Podolski

[Shaggy]

My team hasn't got two left-backs???? Lahm is a right-back filling in at left-back and has played both positions during the tournament.

[dww]

I couldn't believe how little the pundits/commentators made of Aragones' tactics last night - I felt he out-thought Hiddink, which of course is no mean feat. As well as being technically expert, they were tactically very clever indeed and Aragones takes all the credit.

The daft racist.

Can I ask what changes you think he made to his initial team set up to combat Russia? I thought he did well when replacing Villa with Fabregas but his team started with much the same set up as they have in all the other games I thought.

[I'm aware this question sounds arsey but I don't mean it to and I can't think of a phrasing that improves it]

[stevie_gerrard_8]

Villa may yet play in the final, according to the Spanish FF

[Shaggy]

The way I saw it was, although they were unchanged in personnel, Ramos and Capdevila seemed to be given much more licence to pour forward and, for the most part, try and keep Anyukov and Zhirkov pinned back. This also meant Iniesta could vacate the nominal wide area and move inside, where he does best work. Iniesta had his best game of the tournament.

Also I wondered if Senna would do a man-to-man job on Arshavin but he didn't - Arshavin wasn't given special attention and I thought this was quite clever as it meant Senna could just stay in his usual 'screening' position and do his thing, rather than following Arshavin (often wide) and leaving a big space.

[dww]

I can see what you are saying. I just thought that was always Spain's basic game plan. I just thought that the Russians played into their hands by looking for width from deep themselves and not having players get close to the forward enough to give them some respite.

I actually thought Torres drifting wide was particularly effective for much the same reason that it preyed on the fullbacks mind when they would usually have been attacking. In the Italian game the fact that they were up against a tight packed 6 pretty much negated the neat passing patterns and made any runs by the forwards somewhat redundant but the Russians gave them a lot of room and didn't press hard in midfield either.

[Shaggy]

I can see what you are saying. I just thought that was always Spain's basic game plan. I just thought that the Russians played into their hands by looking for width from deep themselves and not having players get close to the forward enough to give them some respite.

I actually thought Torres drifting wide was particularly effective for much the same reason that it preyed on the fullbacks mind when they would usually have been attacking. In the Italian game the fact that they were up against a tight packed 6 pretty much negated the neat passing patterns and made any runs by the forwards somewhat redundant but the Russians gave them a lot of room and didn't press hard in midfield either.

Yeah I don't think their game plan altered much from the norm but, as I said, the way I saw it was the full-backs had licence to get forward much more regularly than previously in the tournament.

Or maybe that's just how the game panned out.

Certainly the threats of Anyukov and to a lesser extent Zhirkov were nullified.

[badpiggy]

thought zhirkov had a terrible game aside form one or 2 runs at 2-0. thought he didn;t have the energy to get back into position much either - loads of times russia lost the ball in the spanish half and by the tim they'd played it forward there was still no sign of zhirkov geeting back to cover. ramos had a great game.

interesting calls on arshavin and senna there as well. didn't think that senna was man-marking him. the more i think about it - and the lads on rte mentioned this as well - there could well have been fitness issues for the russians even though it's only the start of their season. top russian players don't need to move for money reasons but i can't imagine the russian league being very demanding especially the lower clubs.

need to be careful not to get carried away about spain - russia totally folded and left acres of room for spain. with the players the have, it was going to be a question of how many as the game went on. germany may not be great, but they won't get leave kind of room.

this taking torres off at 60 mins is a load of bollox. he totally has the taking of the german centre halves. how many games have we seen where torres doesn't appear to be doing much and then he scores? aragones has a problem with him and seems intent on letting him know who's boss. if it's 0-0 at 60 mins on sunday and he takes torres off i think you'd have to worry for spain.

finally, will fabregas start? an outside the camp point of view would be that it's insane to start without him. does aragones have something against players that don't play in spain?

[zimbo]

finally, will fabregas start? an outside the camp point of view would be that it's insane to start without him. does aragones have something against players that don't play in spain?

Blimey, you make it sound like he's a racist or something.


....Oh.

[Shaggy]

For me if Villa is fit then Cesc will be sub again. It's worked for them so why change it? He gets his half an hour which is always enough time for him to have an impact on the game.

They're not gonna drop Xavi and after last night's performances they won't be dropping Iniesta or Silva either.

I suppose it's a bit like Babel for us - loads of people I know (non Reds) - were asking me the same questions many are asking of Aragones re Fabregas.

[badpiggy]

For me if Villa is fit then Cesc will be sub again. It's worked for them so why change it? He gets his half an hour which is always enough time for him to have an impact on the game.

They're not gonna drop Xavi and after last night's performances they won't be dropping Iniesta or Silva either.

I suppose it's a bit like Babel for us - loads of people I know (non Reds) - were asking me the same questions many are asking of Aragones re Fabregas.

yeah but fabregas is infinitely better than babel. i know what you mean though - aragones has been proven right the whole way through. or at least he'll see it like that...

[dww]

To be honest last night was the first time I really thought that Fabregas had an impact before the opposition tired. He also looked less than sparkling in the pre-tournament friendlies. Villa and Torres have run all the opposition defences into the ground and I would say this has been a big factor in Spain's progress.

Having said that the German defense looks poor and I would happily put Fabregas on from the start. His energy and swapping with Xavi could well have the same effect but make more space against the Germans - especially if they are still reticent to play Frings as Rolfe looks poor when asked to do anything other than bread and butter work.