Russia and Turkey's performance!

[badpiggy]

A mixture of things i reckon.

Firstly i reckon the English team is put under immense pressure from the press, fans, and also the fact that pretty much every nation we play against ****ing hate us for some reason or other.

Secondly, you look at these teams that do well, like turkey, russia etc - they are not full of primadonna superstars, they are commited to the national team, they seem to have a great sense of togetherness, good team spirit etc. Add that with a few flair players and they can raise the bar to match the big guns. A perfect example would be the Czech team of a few years ago - they had the likes of Nedved but also other players that would struggle to get into the england set up. But they gelled as a team.

The english team, on paper - easily one of the best teams in the world, full of superstars(at least in their own minds) but the always seems to be an ar of arrogance around the england team - they don't come across as down to earth, hard working, work for each other team like pretty much every other nation. They seem to be their to boost there own egos and their own careers.

Plus our national team takes second place to the premier league and the squad seem to spend less time together than other nations.

for me a starting english 11 would look something like this

------------------James--------

Micah Richards-----terry----Ferdinand------cole

-----Lampard-------Gerrard--------Barry

-----rooney------owen--------cole


Now i know people are going to have their own opinions on players, tactics, who is on form etc everyone will have their own ideas etc - thats not what i am looking at - if we just take that team down, on paper, as a rough idea as the top 11 english players and compare with the rest of europe, what would you swap! not a lot imo

Swap James for - Casillas, Buffon, Van Der Sar, etc
I think the back four is as good as any back four in europe

now the midfield and attack can be played around with, so thats were we will get the debats/arguements - so for arguements sake - which team in europe can boast a stronger THREE than Lampard, Gerrard, Barry????? it's difficult

And then the same for the front three, you would swap owen for pretty much most strikers at the moment - Torres, Villa, etc etc - but rooney and joe cole are top top players and would probably get in every starting 11 in europe

zero creativity or guile in your midfield there - a midfield of lampard, gerrard and barrry is a sure-fire recipe for continued failure methinks.

[reds123]

zero creativity or guile in your midfield there - a midfield of lampard, gerrard and barrry is a sure-fire recipe for continued failure methinks.

Then who can be England's Arshavin?

Maybe Joe Cole??

[PTP]

zero creativity or guile in your midfield there - a midfield of lampard, gerrard and barrry is a sure-fire recipe for continued failure methinks.

Head - wall

- i knew posting that was a bad idea - Ok - but do you agree, that on paper, the top three english midfielders (not including scholes, he's retired from international football), would be Gerrard, Lampard, Barry. If not? who else...... i like hagreaves, he'd be in the squad there is a few other that are decent, carrick etc .

As i said!!! for arguements sake i picked the top 11 english players so we could purely compare with the other teams at euro 2008. I never mentioned that should be the team, tactics, system, set up etc etc etc - as probably no one in the world seems to know how to get an england team together. The 11 i picked was purely to highlight that England have enough quality to be competing at the top of europe/the world - in fact they probably have more 'quality' to choose from than most other nations.

[badpiggy]

Head - wall

- i knew posting that was a bad idea - Ok - but do you agree, that on paper, the top three english midfielders (not including scholes, he's retired from international football), would be Gerrard, Lampard, Barry. If not? who else...... i like hagreaves, he'd be in the squad there is a few other that are decent, carrick etc .

As i said!!! for arguements sake i picked the top 11 english players so we could purely compare with the other teams at euro 2008. I never mentioned that should be the team, tactics, system, set up etc etc etc - as probably no one in the world seems to know how to get an england team together. The 11 i picked was purely to highlight that England have enough quality to be competing at the top of europe/the world - in fact they probably have more 'quality' to choose from than most other nations.

i'm only being a bit of a cunt - the more general problem is that coaching in england doesn't seem to produce too many creative players so the lack of creativity in the national side is unsurprising. ultimately the likes of gerrard, lampard and barry - and hargreaves and loads of others - are big, strong box to box players who'll run all day. look at the euros at the moment - technical ability is the first thing nailed down so obviously the basic skills of trapping the ball, passing the ball toa teammate, running fast and controlling the ball are the attributes worked on first with kids. joe coloe is an anomaly in english football.

[PTP]

i know you are/were

It's the way the modern game has gone tho - the emphasis is on players(certainly on young english players) to be athletes first, footballers second. Thats why i included the likes of joe cole and rooney as attackers, who imo seem to be the only two natural flair/creative english players of a decent quality, who have played at a high level. We probably have the strongest group of box to box midfielders in the world.

Anyway tho - i think that if a system was found and settled upon, that had the likes of joe cole and rooney involved as attackers, then there is enough creatvity, most teams only have two or three players like that anyay. - i think the problem, as pointed out by caco is we have no really striker to lead the line.

At the moment - the fashion is to have the 4 -2 - 3 -1 formation (again on paper ) something like this for england

---------------James---------
Richards----JT---Rio-----AshleyCole

------Hargeaves-----Barry--------

Rooney-------Gerrard-------JoeCole

--------------Me------------



Thats a ****ing stong team, ON PAPER as good as any in europe. The problem being i am more of an Centre Mid/Left Mid as opposed to an out and out striker! - seriously tho, If we had a 'torre' to play that role then we have a system that works, and good players to fill that system - But it's easy to put that on paper, it's implementing it thats the hard part -

for starters, a strong manager is needed to say - right, this is the set up for england, this is this system, and it changes for no-one. then you need to find the right players for the system, and then on top of that give those players and that system time to gel. Then if injuries occur, rather than picking the next superstar on the list, actually have the balls to pick the next best player for that system

[Reece]

You and Rooney would get on well together Mike. Both like the older lady

[SK]

---------------James---------
Richards----JT---Rio-----AshleyCole

------Hargeaves-----Barry--------

A.Young-------Gerrard-------JoeCole

--------------Rooney------------

that's a better option i think.

i know rooney's not an out'n'out striker but still far better than the rest.

that sistem with rooney up front would be more like the one spalatti implemented at roma where totti (who's also not a striker) leads the front line, but drops deep and opens space for the attackinc trio to drop into.

[Joe King]

You and Rooney would get on well together Mike. Both like the older lady

Both with nutters

Anyway, who gives a **** about England? As long as Liverpool win the title ****load of times, I couldn't give a flying **** about England.

[PTP]

that's a better option i think.

i know rooney's not an out'n'out striker but still far better than the rest.

that sistem with rooney up front would be more like the one spalatti implemented at roma where totti (who's also not a striker) leads the front line, but drops deep and opens space for the attackinc trio to drop into.

- i like your thinking - this leads me on to another thing then - THE FUTURE, who was it recently who said the future was a 4-6-0 formation, there was a thread recently about it.

England could be the first team to 'use' this new fangled system

[PTP]

Both with nutters

Anyway, who gives a **** about England? As long as Liverpool win the title ****load of times, I couldn't give a flying **** about England.

I don't - but it's been a good debate about football - from it, you can quite clearly see there is only a few us capable of discussing tactics

[dww]

Head - wall

- i knew posting that was a bad idea - Ok - but do you agree, that on paper, the top three english midfielders (not including scholes, he's retired from international football), would be Gerrard, Lampard, Barry. If not? who else...... i like hagreaves, he'd be in the squad there is a few other that are decent, carrick etc .

As i said!!! for arguements sake i picked the top 11 english players so we could purely compare with the other teams at euro 2008. I never mentioned that should be the team, tactics, system, set up etc etc etc - as probably no one in the world seems to know how to get an england team together. The 11 i picked was purely to highlight that England have enough quality to be competing at the top of europe/the world - in fact they probably have more 'quality' to choose from than most other nations.

Thats the thing the way you want to play determines who are the best players. For me almost no matter what modern system you play Hargreaves should be in the England starting XI.

The thing is that the England starting XI argument is a bit of a red herring for two reasons: while they are good players they don't complement each other that well (in midfield particularly) and they don't have solid enough technique. In international football the fall back of how good technically you are is very important as relationships have to be built up much faster and those around you will not know your game as well or you theirs.

We also never have the right attitude we always think getting the ball forward quickly is the best plan - no matter what. As a group we never have a tactical leader on the pitch and we inevitably thus end up as the sort of moody side who get nervous or worried and then the midfield drops on top of the defense and no one has anyone to pass too.

Basically our players are too stupid and arrogant IMO.

[badpiggy]

Thats the thing the way you want to play determines who are the best players. For me almost no matter what modern system you play Hargreaves should be in the England starting XI.

The thing is that the England starting XI argument is a bit of a red herring for two reasons: while they are good players they don't complement each other that well (in midfield particularly) and they don't have solid enough technique. In international football the fall back of how good technically you are is very important as relationships have to be built up much faster and those around you will not know your game as well or you theirs.

We also never have the right attitude we always think getting the ball forward quickly is the best plan - no matter what. As a group we never have a tactical leader on the pitch and we inevitably thus end up as the sort of moody side who get nervous or worried and then the midfield drops on top of the defense and no one has anyone to pass too.

Basically our players are too stupid and arrogant IMO.

the media hype around them doesn't help - such unbelievable pressure on the england team to repeat the success of 66 and all that.

[PTP]

so to some up the reason England are ****e is because

1) They are under immense pressure from fans/media
2) There is no system in place
3) as a result noone knows the best starting XI
4) There is not enough naturally creative/technical players
5) There hasn't been a strong enough manager to deal with the egos
6) the players are arrogant
7) the players are thick

[Joe King]

Capello said in an interview on the BBC that the English team can't play like the Spanish because they aren't 'good enough' to play that way. The English way naturally is to play the more direct approach- not long ball per se, but soon as the space is exposed, the ball is released from the midfield quick and the attacker will chase and hopefully create a chance for himself. Best example Torres, Adebayor, Drogba. This works well in the Premiership because the teams play at a higher tempo, higher defensive line than in International football.

International football is a more sophisticated, patient game than club football. Teams will set their stall out and are happy to play on the counter. England on the other hand, due to the lack of experience of football in different countries don't know of any other way of playing. They have had this mindset of playing this fast, direct style which sticks with them until they retire unless they move to Italy, France, Spain, Germany where teams play a more technical game with a different set of tactics and formations.

Another problem with the English team is that there seems to be this divine right by the English supporters that they should be in every tournament and win it. The problem which Sven had was that he conformed to the media and played a team which seemed disjointed, clunky and due to the lack of his backbone, he didn't drop players and pick players who inevitably would have improved it. There is no doubt that there is some fantastic talent in the English pool however its when they become a team, they seem to be playing this awful brand of football. Its about picking a team to suit the team not picking the best individuals. Personally, I feel with the current fashion in tactics, England should resort to 4-5-1 or some adaptation of it as a lot of players do play this way and also a lot of the international teams do also. Possession is key when playing against foreign opposition and currently the crop of players at Capello's disposal don't seem to like to keep the ball but instead toss it up for Rooney and Crouch to scrap for. Intelligent teams and coaches will easily pick up on this hence England's downfall in the qualification.

Whether Capello coaches the players to play in a more patient manner or whether the players take it upon themselves, we will see but I am not too optimistic of England's chances at the World Cup.

Heres my England XI: James, Richards, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Hargreaves, Barry, Young, Gerrard, Cole, Rooney.

[PTP]

where did you c+p that from?