Russia and Turkey's performance!

[Joe King]

yeah from what i've seen of him for barca and in this tournement - tho i don't know what position he is supposed to be - is he a centre mid or a right mid - he looks to me like a centre mid being played right mid and if thats the case well then joe cole could well pip him in the starting XI

That is the case however at Barca especially next season, he is going to find it extremely hard to play in the middle with Toure, Xavi and Keita and possible Arshavin.

[dww]

Agree - but does anyteam in the world (maybe brazil/kaka argentina/messi) have a Zidane - for me zidane is one of the top three of all time!!!

surely joe cole is as good as anyone currently playing in euro 2008 - excluding the dutch and the spanish i reckon Joe Cole would walk into every team in the comp and be pushing for a place in th dutch/spain

Did you read the article on the BBC about Rivaldo this week (I think that is where and when I read it may be wrong)? Basically it was a claim that at their respective peaks Rivaldo was better than Zidane.

It made some interesting points about Zidane rarely contributing killer balls and goals. I can see both sides of the debate - I loved to watch Zidane play but wonder how much was the artistry with which he did things rather than how effective he was. [Thats not to say that in key games Zidane didn't do provide some vital goals/assists]

Which brings me to a point I don't think English players (and Gerrard is a prime example) are efficient enough with the ball. Unlike Zidane they don't retain possession well enough and they try to hard to make things happen to dep in low percentage areas. This is not just technique but mentality - a prime example is Joe Cole under Mourinho when someone told him what to do all the time he was ace and very productive once he left and mostly for England he has mostly been good but less than sparkling.

Any way I think football at the highest level is about efficiency and we have two autonomous efficient players in the England squad - Rooney and Hargreaves. We rarely have anyone to score the goals up with Rooney to make the most of his talents (now Owen is increasingly likely to be broken or only just sellotaped back together) and tend not to play Hargreaves enough.

[PTP]

Need to go home so will fully read in the morn - just noticed the first bit about rivaldo vs zidane - thats a whole thread on its' own - i loved zidane, but to be fair rivaldo did somethings that were just unbelievable but he's career kinda tailed off and faded him out which prob why he isn't regarded so highly- if that makes sense.

The overhead kick he scored for barca, in the last minute of the last game and barca had to win to make the champions league was unreal - it is prob the best goal i have ever seen whilst actually watchin it live (obv that in the ground) but usually you here about it then youtube it - but i was sitting home watching the tv screaming "****IN HELL" over and over

[dww]

Need to go home so will fully read in the morn - just noticed the first bit about rivaldo vs zidane - thats a whole thread on its' own - i loved zidane, but to be fair rivaldo did somethings that were just unbelievable but he's career kinda tailed off and faded him out which prob why he isn't regarded so highly- if that makes sense.

The overhead kick he scored for barca, in the last minute of the last game and barca had to win to make the champions league was unreal - it is prob the best goal i have ever seen whilst actually watchin it live (obv that in the ground) but usually you here about it then youtube it - but i was sitting home watching the tv screaming "****IN HELL" over and over

Fair enough - the article btw was in the Guardian it turns out.

[Joe King]

Wasn't there a period where some thought Figo was better than Zidane, around Euro 2000?

[badpiggy]

No, this thread was about how the like of russia and turkey can perform to a level that includes superstars can't a why! - or at leasr thats what i made it into

i think we're back to technique again - both russia and turkey are very obviously almost entirely technically very proficient (sorry for that shocker of a sentence...).
it's certainly one way of explaining how well turkey have done - a team (and, as we found out, a second team) who can pass, take a pass at speed, move , make space for themselves, beat players etc...

regarding zidane etc... russia are built around arshavin who may not be as good as zidane but he's the fulcrum and most good stuff passes through him and often finishes with him. spain/arsenal have fabregas. croatia have modric. england used to have scholes but he was often played out of position. creativity tends not to be valued in english football.

[PTP]

Did you read the article on the BBC about Rivaldo this week (I think that is where and when I read it may be wrong)? Basically it was a claim that at their respective peaks Rivaldo was better than Zidane.

It made some interesting points about Zidane rarely contributing killer balls and goals. I can see both sides of the debate - I loved to watch Zidane play but wonder how much was the artistry with which he did things rather than how effective he was. [Thats not to say that in key games Zidane didn't do provide some vital goals/assists]

It's a tough, as i highlighted briefly yesterday - rivaldo, on his day was the best player in the world - but i never thought he was as consistant as ZZ - Everytime i watched zidane he would be involved, rivaldo on the other hand, i have watched games and forgot he was on the pitch. With regards the killer ball/game changing moment tho - rivaldo was so unpredicatble that he could do anything, like the last kick of tthe game, overhead kick for barca, the game was over, he had nothing on, it was roy of the rovers stuff


Which brings me to a point I don't think English players (and Gerrard is a prime example) are efficient enough with the ball. Unlike Zidane they don't retain possession well enough and they try to hard to make things happen to dep in low percentage areas. This is not just technique but mentality - a prime example is Joe Cole under Mourinho when someone told him what to do all the time he was ace and very productive once he left and mostly for England he has mostly been good but less than sparkling.

Ay, good point ref gerrard, it's something that rafa has mentioned practically everytime he talks about Gerrard - it' seems to be the philopshy of the english, get the ball forward as quick as possible and don't stop for a second - i don't think the pace of the premiership allows players to stop, pass it round the back four etc etc. Plus as mentioned, and the joe cole point prob falls into this - english footballers seem to lack any real intelligence - prob paul scholes has been the only one in the last 10 years

Any way I think football at the highest level is about efficiency and we have two autonomous efficient players in the England squad - Rooney and Hargreaves. We rarely have anyone to score the goals up with Rooney to make the most of his talents (now Owen is increasingly likely to be broken or only just sellotaped back together) and tend not to play Hargreaves enough.

- i have always liked hargreaves, i backed when he was being bored years ago cause noone had seen him play etc - i loved the kid cause i found on champ man as 17yr old at bayern and he was class - i think england would benefit with having 2-3 players playing abroad in say italy or spain - plus it seems evident we don't have a goalscorer, and the worrying thing is i don't see one anywhere!

[dww]

Something I forgot about yesterday - all of our coaches in the last say 20 years have always seemed to fail to understand that international football is different to club football and as such som players may be better suited to international that others. For example - Koller and Klose are merely good players in club football but have excelled in internationals.

For me there is a strong case to play Crouch as he is hard for other teams to play, scores well in internationals and would be a good focal point for our attack in the more technical less pacy environment of international football. Instead we seem to try and shoehorn Owen and Rooney into a team and end up humping the ball to midgets. How hard can it be to see that this is not a great idea. We should always have two hold up/tall attacking players in every squad as then at least if we do resort to a direct approach it has some hope of working.

I think the fact we tend not to is in part a result of media pressure with McLaren in particular unable to make unpopular decisions.

Oh and I agree about the consistency of Zidane but to some degree I think the consistency came from the fact that he was allowed to just play possesion balls and not make things happen if it wasn't on. This relies a lot on being in a good team to be a success - the article makes the point thus: 10 very good players will always be improved by Zidane but 9 Gary Neville's would not. However the Neville select XI might beat a lot of good teams if they got Rivaldo as the wildcard player.

I guess at the end of the day it emphasises the point that it is how players fit into a team that is important nit just individual ability [and the fact that everyone means different things when they talk about the best player ever etc].

[Shaggy]

Something I forgot about yesterday - all of our coaches in the last say 20 years have always seemed to fail to understand that international football is different to club football and as such som players may be better suited to international that others. For example - Koller and Klose are merely good players in club football but have excelled in internationals.

For me there is a strong case to play Crouch as he is hard for other teams to play, scores well in internationals and would be a good focal point for our attack in the more technical less pacy environment of international football. Instead we seem to try and shoehorn Owen and Rooney into a team and end up humping the ball to midgets. How hard can it be to see that this is not a great idea. We should always have two hold up/tall attacking players in every squad as then at least if we do resort to a direct approach it has some hope of working.

Could not agree more with all of this.

The best football England have played during Capello's hitherto short tenure, was in the last half hour in his first game against Switzerland (I think). Capello changed the system and Crouch came on as a lone striker - with Rooney, SWP and Gerrard all buzzing around in behind him. Crouch was extremely effective and England created a lot of chances. I thought it worked very well but for the subsequent few games Crouch has been back on the bench.

Defoe just isn't up to it and I'd like to see England have a future without Michael Owen in its strongest team.