Tottenham Hotspur

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

Surely they're pushing their luck with the FA, the special circumstances they were given to play in 2 stadia this year was granted on the basis it would be short term. There is no way the top brass didn't know about delays, some people were saying last month that contractors were given Christmas contracts. Will there be some form of punishment? They're creating all kinds of issues in terms of fair play. If they go unbeaten in their new gaff but lose to Cardiff at Wembley, who manage to stay up, relegated sides can feel aggrieved.

[dom9]

Surely they're pushing their luck with the FA, the special circumstances they were given to play in 2 stadia this year was granted on the basis it would be short term. There is no way the top brass didn't know about delays, some people were saying last month that contractors were given Christmas contracts. Will there be some form of punishment? They're creating all kinds of issues in terms of fair play. If they go unbeaten in their new gaff but lose to Cardiff at Wembley, who manage to stay up, relegated sides can feel aggrieved.

It's normal for a stadium to be completed after it officially opens.

The MS at Anfield wasn't completed until the spring after the season started. It was operational in that time, but the dressing rooms and media facilities were temporary until the last few games of that season.

I also think it's reasonably normal for large, complex projects to overrun. Maybe the timescales didn't include enough contingency? Who knows. The hard stop (or hard start) of a football season does highlight any problems in a way that building a skyscraper wouldn't.
.

But if safety systems fail their test, then there's not a lot of fore-planning you can put in place for that. Something has gone wrong in that regard.

Why would the "top brass" risk their reputation, not mention the additional admin headache of playing in 2 stadia / refunding tickets etc, by engineering what looks to be like a massive **** up? That doesn't make any sense.

In terms of other clubs being aggrieved - nah, you got to deal with **** like that. Focus on beating your opponent, not the venue.

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

It's normal for a stadium to be completed after it officially opens.

The MS at Anfield wasn't completed until the spring after the season started. It was operational in that time, but the dressing rooms and media facilities were temporary until the last few games of that season.

I also think it's reasonably normal for large, complex projects to overrun. Maybe the timescales didn't include enough contingency? Who knows. The hard stop (or hard start) of a football season does highlight any problems in a way that building a skyscraper wouldn't.
.

But if safety systems fail their test, then there's not a lot of fore-planning you can put in place for that. Something has gone wrong in that regard.

Why would the "top brass" risk their reputation, not mention the additional admin headache of playing in 2 stadia / refunding tickets etc, by engineering what looks to be like a massive **** up? That doesn't make any sense.

In terms of other clubs being aggrieved - nah, you got to deal with **** like that. Focus on beating your opponent, not the venue.

Sorry, of course, I meant contractors who's jobs, at least on the surface appear to be responsible for safety aspects which the stadium couldn't be open to public use until complete.

Delays on projects this big are without exception taken into consideration before the project and adjusted on a regular basis throughout, so this huge delay now simply cannot be news to anyone worth their salt. Now, this is obviously an assumption, but you have to feel Spurs would have been aware and have taken the FA for a bit of a ride, knowing they needed special arrangements made which could only work short term, either way its amateur hour.

When millions are at stake and the playing field isn't level, clubs will have every right to feel aggrieved by another team in the division frankly taking the piss (imo).

[dom9]

Sorry, of course, I meant contractors who's jobs, at least on the surface appear to be responsible for safety aspects which the stadium couldn't be open to public use until complete.

Delays on projects this big are without exception taken into consideration before the project and adjusted on a regular basis throughout, so this huge delay now simply cannot be news to anyone worth their salt. Now, this is obviously an assumption, but you have to feel Spurs would have been aware and have taken the FA for a bit of a ride, knowing they needed special arrangements made which could only work short term, either way its amateur hour.

When millions are at stake and the playing field isn't level, clubs will have every right to feel aggrieved by another team in the division frankly taking the piss (imo).

Only my opinion, and I'm not involved in building the thing, but I disagree on pretty much every point you've raised there.

If the systems were tested and failed (and this by all accounts is what happened), then what can you do? I don't think we're talking minor bugs here. It's sounds like a pretty major failure / **** up involving extensive remedial work.

But if you know different, then fair enough really.

[Kenneth]

Sorry, of course, I meant contractors who's jobs, at least on the surface appear to be responsible for safety aspects which the stadium couldn't be open to public use until complete.

Delays on projects this big are without exception taken into consideration before the project and adjusted on a regular basis throughout, so this huge delay now simply cannot be news to anyone worth their salt. Now, this is obviously an assumption, but you have to feel Spurs would have been aware and have taken the FA for a bit of a ride, knowing they needed special arrangements made which could only work short term, either way its amateur hour.

When millions are at stake and the playing field isn't level, clubs will have every right to feel aggrieved by another team in the division frankly taking the piss (imo).

[dom9]

We all love a good conspiracy theory in football, particularly when there is hint of corruption or underhand dealings. If in doubt, assume the worst.

This thread is full of conspiracy theorists being brought back down to earth by people with a bit more knowledge of how these things tend to work in practice: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showt...9397&page=3616

[Buzzo]

Sorry, of course, I meant contractors who's jobs, at least on the surface appear to be responsible for safety aspects which the stadium couldn't be open to public use until complete.

Delays on projects this big are without exception taken into consideration before the project and adjusted on a regular basis throughout, so this huge delay now simply cannot be news to anyone worth their salt. Now, this is obviously an assumption, but you have to feel Spurs would have been aware and have taken the FA for a bit of a ride, knowing they needed special arrangements made which could only work short term, either way its amateur hour.

When millions are at stake and the playing field isn't level, clubs will have every right to feel aggrieved by another team in the division frankly taking the piss (imo).

They would have definitely known in the Summer that it wasn’t going to be ready. The forward planning on a project of this size will be months.

The cash they must be burning through must be sizeable.

[dom9]

They would have definitely known in the Summer that it wasn’t going to be ready. The forward planning on a project of this size will be months.

The cash they must be burning through must be sizeable.

So why sell tickets to games that won't be played in the stadium? It doesn't make any logical sense.

Daniel Levy, of all people seems to have his head screwed on more than most.

[Buzzo]

So why sell tickets to games that won't be played in the stadium? It doesn't make any logical sense.

Daniel Levy, of all people seems to have his head screwed on more than most.

Same as you I don’t know.

But it seems impossible to believe that this has all come as a massive surprise. The talk is that it won’t be ready until the new year, so it’s no small delay, and again the information sent out will be being managed by Spurs PR. Were the tickets even on general sale..? Season ticket holders will just be issued different seats.

They would also have built in contingencies on venue switches, so sorting a bit of ticketing admin and reissuing for a different venue wouldn’t be that much of an issue.

They have big issues though, because Wembley is booked for when they play City, and a switch to the Etihad would mean City play 4 of their last 5 away. Issues such as this are where the integrity of the League and therefor the issues with Spurs not being ready come in.

[Buzzo]

dupe.

[dom9]

Same as you I don’t know.

But it seems impossible to believe that this has all come as a massive surprise. The talk is that it won’t be ready until the new year, so it’s no small delay, and again the information sent out will be being managed by Spurs PR. Were the tickets even on general sale..? Season ticket holders will just be issued different seats.

They would also have built in contingencies on venue switches, so sorting a bit of ticketing admin and reissuing for a different venue wouldn’t be that much of an issue.

They have big issues though, because Wembley is booked for when they play City, and a switch to the Etihad would mean City play 4 of their last 5 away. Issues such as this are where the integrity of the League and therefor the issues with Spurs not being ready come in.

If the systems have failed their test, require ripping up and starting again (and I am speculating here), then yes - that would be a massive surprise. You just don't expect a **** up of that magnitude to to happen.

Yeah, tickets were on sale - it was only 4 weeks or so until our game with them.

Think the City game will be played on the Monday night now .

[spud_gun]

Will Wembley be ready for a Monday night game?

They've got the American football on the Sunday. That'll finish about six. They'd have 24 hours to get Wembley back to being a football stadium.

[Kenneth]

If the systems have failed their test, require ripping up and starting again (and I am speculating here), then yes - that would be a massive surprise. You just don't expect a **** up of that magnitude to to happen.

Yeah, tickets were on sale - it was only 4 weeks or so until our game with them.

Think the City game will be played on the Monday night now .

Whether you expect it or not, that doesn't happen without you knowing it might, or recklessly ignoring the risks that it might. You have a risky plan, adopted a risky solution, or you know there is a problem and are desperately (and probably unrealistically) hoping that it is mitigated or avoided sufficiently. This isn't a space mission to Mars, filled with new and untested technology.

[dom9]

Whether you expect it or not, that doesn't happen without you knowing it might, or recklessly ignoring the risks that it might. You have a risky plan, adopted a risky solution, or you know there is a problem and are desperately (and probably unrealistically) hoping that it is mitigated or avoided sufficiently. This isn't a space mission to Mars, filled with new and untested technology.

Yes - agreed, and that is a bit different to:

"There is no way the top brass didn't know about delays"

"this huge delay now simply cannot be news to anyone worth their salt. Now, this is obviously an assumption, but you have to feel Spurs would have been aware and have taken the FA for a bit of a ride"

"They would have definitely known in the Summer that it wasn’t going to be ready"

"But it seems impossible to believe that this has all come as a massive surprise"


The risks may well have not been managed brilliantly in this case, but all risks are theoretical until they turn into actual issues.

[Buzzo]

Yes - agreed, and that is a bit different to:

"There is no way the top brass didn't know about delays"

"this huge delay now simply cannot be news to anyone worth their salt. Now, this is obviously an assumption, but you have to feel Spurs would have been aware and have taken the FA for a bit of a ride"

"They would have definitely known in the Summer that it wasn’t going to be ready"

"But it seems impossible to believe that this has all come as a massive surprise"


The risks may well have not been managed brilliantly in this case, but all risks are theoretical until they turn into actual issues.

You are a loss to the world of Politics Dom. These are semantics really, and just quoting one line of a response removes a bit of context.

Every plan and every contingency is of course only affected by the actual failure of a deadline being met, and an unforeseeable element being introduced, but on a engineering build of close to £1bn, there should be a degree of realism on the time frame. Perhaps Spurs should have allowed for two seasons at Wembley with the contingency that if the stadium was signed off early they would move in sooner?

The transfer of information is whats interesting, when did Spurs actually find out what was going on, and how did that effect the agreements they had in place with the FA and PL. The talk of contractrors being paid vast amounts in the summer suggests there was an understanding that deadlines would not be met.

Fwiw, you were arguing the exact opposite point (realism of meeting a deadline on a complex build) when we were discussing the new Barca stadium. Which to me, though perhaps realistic in time frame is a project that will encounter many, many unforeseeables. I would say that the LFC main stand project finishing on time will be an exception rather than a rule on this type of engineering build.