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The Question: is 3-5-2 dead?

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    The Question: is 3-5-2 dead?

    Guardian
    In the latest instalment of our in-depth series, Jonathan Wilson tracks the rise and fall of a tactical survivor

    Some formations come and go, waxing and waning in and out of fashion. When others fade, though, they disappear. Nobody would dream these days of playing a 2-3-5 or a W-M, and it seemed as though 3-5-2 was headed the same way. There are good reasons for that and yet, defying the prevailing wisdom, Napoli have climbed to second in Serie A using the formation. Perhaps, as Carlos Bilardo returns to the spotlight as part of Diego Maradona's coaching staff with the Argentina national team, it is appropriate that the tactics he devised should fall once again under consideration.
    The birth of 3-5-2

    Bilardo, having been part of Osvaldo Zubeldía's brutal and pragmatic Estudiantes side, was as system-driven as any coach; putting him in charge of an Argentina side featuring one of the greatest individual talents there has ever been seemed like football's great joke. His solution was to make Maradona his captain and to develop a new formation to accommodate him.

    Wingers were in decline, becoming auxiliary midfielders, he reasoned, so what was the point of full-backs? They had been becoming increasingly attacking since the early 50s and the days of the great Brazilian Nilton Santos, so why not simply redesignate them as midfielders?

    It was desperation that drove Bilardo to experiment on a tour of Europe in 1984. He had won only three of his first 15 games in charge, and his position was under threat. So low had his reputation sunk that when he read out the team to face Switzerland, journalists assumed he had made a mistake. "They told me I was wrong, that I'd named three central defenders," he said. "But I told them I was not confused. We were going to use three defenders, five midfielders and two forwards. We had practised it for two years, and now I was going to put it into practice in tough games."

    Switzerland were beaten 2-0, as were Belgium, and then Argentina won 3-1 against West Germany. Bilardo then retreated from the 3-5-2 – perhaps to shield his new formation from spying eyes, or perhaps because he had no grand plan but was constantly tinkering – until it came to the World Cup quarter-final against England two years later. He dropped the centre-forward Pedro Pasculli, who had scored in the previous round against Uruguay, instead deploying the midfielder Héctor Enrique as part of a central trio with Jorge Burruchaga and Sergio Batista. "You can't play against the English with a pure centre-forward," he explained. "They'd devour him, and the extra man in midfield will give Maradona more room." His playmaker, in other words, became a second striker as the shape shifted from 4-3-1-2 to 3-5-2 (or perhaps, more precisely, 3-5-1-1).
    How the idea spread

    European football had been heading to a similar point. Catenaccio – and the slightly more liberal gioco all'Italiana that followed it – had usually featured a libero, a marking centre-back, a marking right-back who tucked in, and an attacking left-back, with the right-midfielder dropping back where necessary – as a 'tornante', or 'returner'. It didn't take much to play the tornante deeper as what would become known as a right wing-back.

    German football had been wedded to a 1-3-3-1-2 since the 1974 World Cup, often with an attacking libero and/or full-backs. In 1986, West Germany's coach Franz Beckenbauer, depending on the opponents, began pushing one of his central midfielders into a deeper role, so that by the time of the World Cup final, they too were effectively using a libero, two markers, two flank defenders who were expected to provide attacking width, two holders in midfield, a playmaker and two centre-forwards – what would become known as a 3-4-1-2, a close cousin of the 3-5-2.

    And so the system spread. Variants of 3-5-2 won the World Cup in 1990 (West Germany) and 1994 (Brazil) and the European Championship in 1996 (Germany). Even England, the great stronghold of 4-4-2, experimented with the formation through the 90s. And yet now – outside of Brazil and the Balkans – it is barely seen. Not a single side at Euro 2008 used it; not a single side who reached the last 16 of the Champions League last season used it; not a single side in the Premier League uses it (although Portsmouth did dabble).
    Why have teams turned their back on 3-5-2?

    José Alberto Cortes, head of the coaching course at the University of São Paulo, believes the issue is physical. "With the pace of the modern game," he said, "it is impossible for wing-backs to function in the same way because they have to be quicker and fitter than the rest of the players on the pitch."

    Others, though, see the turn against three at the back as the result of incorporating skilful players by bolstering the midfield. Bilardo's formation, curiously, contained the seeds of its own undoing. If the playmaker is deployed not as a midfielder but as a second forward, he drops deep, leaving only one central striker. Modern attempts to use creative players wide in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 equally feature a single central striker. (Here it should be made clear that the modern 4-3-3 – perhaps more accurately a 4-1-2-3 – is significantly different from the 4-3-3 Brazil introduced in 1962, and which was relatively common in Britain in the 70s and early 80s. That system commonly featured two centre-forwards and one winger: it was, in effect, a lopsided 4-4-2, with one wide midfielder more advanced than the other).

    Bilardo's scheme had two markers picking up the opposing centre-forwards, with a spare man sweeping behind. If there is only one centre-forward to mark, though, that leaves two spare men – one provides cover; a second is redundant - which in turn means a shortfall elsewhere on the pitch. "There's no point having three defenders covering one centre-forward," explained Miroslav Djukic, the former Valencia defender who became Partizan Belgrade manager in 2007.
    An analytical approach

    Nelsinho Baptista, the experienced Brazilian coach who took charge of Corinthians in 2007, has developed software to explore the weaknesses of one system when matched against another. "Imagine Team A is playing 3-5-2 against Team B with a 4-5-1 that becomes 4-3-3," he said. "So Team A has to commit the wing-backs to deal with Team B's wingers. That means Team A is using five men to deal with three forwards. In midfield Team A has three central midfielders against three, so the usual advantage of 3-5-2 against 4-4-2 is lost. Then at the front it is two forwards against four defenders, but the spare defenders are full-backs. One can push into midfield to create an extra man there, while still leaving three v two at the back. So Team B can dominate possession, and also has greater width."

    One of Team A's central defenders could, of course, himself step up into midfield, but if you're going to do that, it is surely better to use a defensive midfielder in the role (full-backs are rather more used to advancing than central defenders, so it is more natural for them to function as an auxiliary midfielder). Which is precisely what Chelsea do with Mikel Jon Obi, and Shakhtar Donetsk with Mariusz Lewandowski, a holding midfielder allowing the full-backs greater rein.
    Putting it into practice

    The 2008 African Cup of Nations provides a practical example. Egypt won it with a 3-4-1-2, but that can be explained by the fact that 4-4-2 still tends to dominate tactical thinking in Africa. In fact, in 2008, aside from Egypt – and at times Cameroon - only Guinea and Morocco, both of whom used a 4-2-3-1, did not set up in some form of 4-4-2.

    In their opening match, Egypt hammered Cameroon 4-2, a scoreline that flattered their opponents. They went on to add a further 10 goals in disposing of Sudan, Zambia, Angola and Côte d'Ivoire before meeting Cameroon again in the final. In that first game, Cameroon's coach Otto Pfister had his players in a 4-4-2; in the final, he opted for a 4-2-3-1 and, for the first time in the tournament, Egypt struggled for fluency. The central defender Wael Gomaa looked like a spare part, anxiously and uncertainly wandering into midfield, and, although Egypt bossed possession, they ended up beating a limited side only because of a terrible individual error from Rigobert Song.
    Signs of recovery

    So what, then, of Napoli? If 3-5-2 is ailing, how can their success be accounted for? The answer is that they are quite happy to have, in effect, two liberi. Napoli are not a team who need to take the initiative to the opposition; rather – as happened in the early days of catenaccio – they often sit deep, invite the opposition onto them, and break quickly, using the pace of Ezequiel Lavezzi. Having an extra spare man at the back makes it easier for them to pick up runners, and Edy Reja, their coach, is prepared to sacrifice possession for the extra defensive security.

    It would not work for everybody – probably not for a top, top club, who feel the onus to take the game on themselves – but it works for Napoli. And that illuminates a universal truth about tactics: there is no right or wrong, just fads and fashions and systems that are right for particular teams at particular times.

    Is 3-5-2 dying? No, but the trend towards one central striker has exposed a serious shortcoming.

    Jonathan Wilson is the author of Inverting The Pyramid: The History of Football Tactics, which is shortlisted for this year's William Hill Sports Book of the Year Award.
    "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
    -- William Blake

    #2
    how happy are you with that

    "Sky and Setanta have the right to choose their games and it will be the same for everyone. So Mr Ferguson will not be complaining about fixtures and a campaign against United.

    "Or there is another option. That Mr Ferguson organises the fixtures in his office and sends it to us and everyone will know and cannot complain. That is simple."

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by bobbyfallon View Post
      how happy are you with that



      Personally I think Napoli are only playing it to piss me off.

      My new footballing hero is Nelsinho Baptista.
      "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
      -- William Blake

      Comment


        #4
        3-5-2 is the only way to go. if only rafa would just listen to me!!!!!

        in fairness he has only won 1 more european cup as a manager than i have
        "Sky and Setanta have the right to choose their games and it will be the same for everyone. So Mr Ferguson will not be complaining about fixtures and a campaign against United.

        "Or there is another option. That Mr Ferguson organises the fixtures in his office and sends it to us and everyone will know and cannot complain. That is simple."

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Bill Shankly
          Football is a simple game made complicated by idiots
          Originally posted by Gordon Brown
          (1995)
          "A weak currency is the sign of a weak economy,which is the sign of a weak government"

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by bobbyfallon View Post
            3-5-2 is the only way to go. if only rafa would just listen to me!!!!!

            in fairness he has only won 1 more european cup as a manager than i have
            You also have a higher post count which count for something.
            "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
            -- William Blake

            Comment


              #7
              Read his book: Inverting The Pyramid. I've read bits, its extremely good.

              Comment


                #8
                too right it's dead

                Surprised anyone can think otherwise, it's flaws are glaringly obvious
                Like blood on iron

                Comment


                  #9
                  We won a European cup with it a few years ago, haven't we?

                  In it's original design, like the article says, the 3-5-2 won't work in the modern game because it's pointless to have 3 CB's when the opposition uses one striker, and it also fails miserably against today's 4-3-3, which is a perfect counter for 3-5-2.

                  The modern game is also way too quick for any player to dominate his flank by himself. Even top attacking full backs whom you could say are capable of adapting to the role, would struggle getting forward efficiently without a wide midfielder in front of them who gets most of the attention and allows them to bomb forward from a deeper and more unnoticed area.

                  But the 3-5-2 isn't dead and will come back at some point in the future because a different variation of it will allow teams to play with two wingers, two strikers AND a playmaker behind them.

                  With the lack of true wing backs and the increasing amount of specialized defensive midfielders, I can see 3-5-2 being introduced in this formula.

                  GK
                  RCB CB LCB
                  DM DM
                  RW AM LW
                  ST ST

                  Three centre backs, two of them with good pace, and two defensive midfielders sitting in front of them, protecting an impressive attacking line up. It's flexible enough to be both an attacking formation and a defensive one, depending on the players you use.

                  If I try to fit our players into it.

                  Reina
                  Carragher Skrtel Agger
                  Alonso Mascherano
                  Kuyt Gerrard Riera
                  Torres Keane

                  Not bad actually. If I wanted to be little more secure, I'd stick Kuyt and Riera deeper, if I played it home, it could tear teams apart.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by JohnDoe View Post
                    We won a European cup with it a few years ago, haven't we?

                    In it's original design, like the article says, the 3-5-2 won't work in the modern game because it's pointless to have 3 CB's when the opposition uses one striker, and it also fails miserably against today's 4-3-3, which is a perfect counter for 3-5-2.

                    The modern game is also way too quick for any player to dominate his flank by himself. Even top attacking full backs whom you could say are capable of adapting to the role, would struggle getting forward efficiently without a wide midfielder in front of them who gets most of the attention and allows them to bomb forward from a deeper and more unnoticed area.

                    But the 3-5-2 isn't dead and will come back at some point in the future because a different variation of it will allow teams to play with two wingers, two strikers AND a playmaker behind them.

                    With the lack of true wing backs and the increasing amount of specialized defensive midfielders, I can see 3-5-2 being introduced in this formula.

                    GK
                    RCB CB LCB
                    DM DM
                    RW AM LW
                    ST ST

                    Three centre backs, two of them with good pace, and two defensive midfielders sitting in front of them, protecting an impressive attacking line up. It's flexible enough to be both an attacking formation and a defensive one, depending on the players you use.

                    If I try to fit our players into it.

                    Reina
                    Carragher Skrtel Agger
                    Alonso Mascherano
                    Kuyt Gerrard Riera
                    Torres Keane

                    Not bad actually. If I wanted to be little more secure, I'd stick Kuyt and Riera deeper, if I played it home, it could tear teams apart.
                    Nah, we hardly won it with the system, we just used it in the dying moments when we were trying to see out the game. Everyone back and cutting out their crosses. If we had been chasing the game we never would have used this, I think it's pretty much dead by big teams, but with right personel it can work fine for smaller teams I suppose.
                    * The above is posted in my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by The_weatherman View Post
                      Nah, we hardly won it with the system, we just used it in the dying moments when we were trying to see out the game. Everyone back and cutting out their crosses. If we had been chasing the game we never would have used this, I think it's pretty much dead by big teams, but with right personel it can work fine for smaller teams I suppose.
                      We switched to 3-4-3 at half time. I'd say scoring three goals, coming back from being 3-0 down, against that Milan side, was pretty impressive.

                      Dudek
                      Carragher Hyypia Traore
                      Smicer Alonso Hamann Riise
                      Gerrard Baros Garcia

                      When Milan put on Serginho, Rafa switched Gerrard to RWB and moved Smicer forward to counter him, but it was 3 in the back from half time to the end.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by JohnDoe View Post
                        We switched to 3-4-3 at half time. I'd say scoring three goals, coming back from being 3-0 down, against that Milan side, was pretty impressive.

                        Dudek
                        Carragher Hyypia Traore
                        Smicer Alonso Hamann Riise
                        Gerrard Baros Garcia

                        When Milan put on Serginho, Rafa switched Gerrard to RWB and moved Smicer forward to counter him, but it was 3 in the back from half time to the end.
                        I really think though that to concentrate on a single game (or half in fact) is to miss the point in a tactical discussion. No one of any intellect believes that any system is incapable of working on occasion depending on the way that the players on both teams play. Any discussion of formations has to be about the long term applicability to a team aiming to achieve certain goals over a sustained period. For me in that context the 3-5-2 is too easily countered by too many different setups that allow differing opposition to exploit its weaknesses to ever be used by a team doing anything other than desiring to survive a couple of games.

                        Realistically the formation used in Athens was not a sustainable 3-5-2 (or even more broadly back three based system) for the following reasons:

                        1/ Initially we attacked and had little concern about further conceding as we were already 3-0 down. Our mentality was and could be completely different to a team starting a game.

                        2/ In the end when we did switch to a roughly conventional 3-5-2 we were under pressure and largely hanging on. If it hadn't been for Dudek's magical save and magnificent Carra's sliding intervention we would have lost despite the heroics.
                        "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
                        -- William Blake

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Didn't rafa use 352 in a game against newcastle a couple of seasons back?

                          i think 352 is far from dead, teams tend to use 4 defenders at the back now, but, playing a libero at the back is good for teams who don't have/can't afford reliable defenders, and the sweeper is perfect for that because he covers their back!

                          and if i'm not mistaken cska moscow played 3 at the back when they won the Uefa cup in 2005, so to say its a bad system is rash!

                          it has flaws but so do other systems
                          Jürgen Klopp

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by SloKopite View Post
                            Didn't rafa use 352 in a game against newcastle a couple of seasons back?

                            i think 352 is far from dead, teams tend to use 4 defenders at the back now, but, playing a libero at the back is good for teams who don't have/can't afford reliable defenders, and the sweeper is perfect for that because he covers their back!

                            and if i'm not mistaken cska moscow played 3 at the back when they won the Uefa cup a 2005, so to say its a bad system i foolish!
                            We've used it in a number of games (usually against Newcastle and Wigan under Jewell) to exploit opposition weaknesses. However now we are a better team we don't need to make those sorts of changes to try and counter specific opposition. It was also the formation that got totally undone by Reading last season.

                            I think that 3-5-2 is in the current climate a poor choice of system, particularly if used regularly and you intend to win a top league. There is a reason that no top teams adopt it on a regular basis.

                            I'm not convinced by the sweeper argument. In the modern game a player behind the CBs doesn't have time on the ball and will be pressurised easily and makes it harder to play offside. The role has almost entirely been supplanted by the holding midfielder which is a much more flexible arrangement IMO.
                            "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
                            -- William Blake

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by dww View Post
                              We've used it in a number of games (usually against Newcastle and Wigan under Jewell) to exploit opposition weaknesses. However now we are a better team we don't need to make those sorts of changes to try and counter specific opposition. It was also the formation that got totally undone by Reading last season.

                              I think that 3-5-2 is in the current climate a poor choice of system, particularly if used regularly and you intend to win a top league. There is a reason that no top teams adopt it on a regular basis.

                              I'm not convinced by the sweeper argument. In the modern game a player behind the CBs doesn't have time on the ball and will be pressurised easily and makes it harder to play offside. The role has almost entirely been supplanted by the holding midfielder which is a much more flexible arrangement IMO.
                              agree, but 352 is more or less used by teams playing deeper, so playing offside 20meters from goal is not a good idea.

                              i'm not saying its the perfect system far from it, it has many flaws, but to dismiss it would be wrong.

                              i've seen slovenia make it to consecutive euro(2000) and world cup(2002), with 352, and being ranked over 120th at the time was a big acievment. it was used mainly to defend and counter but it was effective.

                              with the emphasis on tactics these day its "easy" to eliminate threats from any team, with practically any system.

                              holding midfielder do a good job nowadays but it's equally hard to find a good holding mid, than it is to find a top striker, so playing an experienced central defender(like sami) in the sweeper role, with two other not so reliable centerbacks, is maybe a better idea.

                              anyhow its up a managers to decide what system to use with their team, and they to that by what sort of players they have avaliable to them - and mind not all teams in the world can afford player they need!
                              Jürgen Klopp

                              Comment

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