Martin Kelly

[danperkins]

Wisdom has started 13 games, and in those 13 games we've conceded a total of 13 goals. Now point out which goals Wisdom was responsible for with his 'very evident' mistakes, making sure that the total matches your hyperbole. Here's an aide-mémoire for you: http://www.lfchistory.net/Players/Pl...eason/1229-122

This old chestnut, anyways i'll bite. Without trawling through videos off top of my head he was at fault for Everton's second goal in derby, in build up and not closing down Fellaini for his cross for Naismith. Got torn apart by Mirallas in that game and was lucky Mirallas came off injured. Vs Newcastle didn't spot Cabaye coming in at back post for Ben Arfa cross.

Two games with two defensive lapses that cost us, nothing hyperbole as you suggested, just what happened. Those are the mistakes the young lad was punished for, he was making mistakes in most games passing and positional. Not ready for our first team.

Anyways there you are, a nice little aide-mémoire as you so condescendingly posted above

[RedReet]

I said a defender should be able to defend first and foremost, everything else after that is a bonus

I've checked through the Kelly vs Johnson thread, last i posted about it was 21-11-11. Not a few months ago & not at end of last season & i never said Kelly was better all round, i said he was a better natural defender & i had debate with you about Alan Hansen ripping apart Johnson's body positioning throughout the season.

http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=2246412&postcount=163

[danperkins]

http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/show...&postcount=163

Emmmmm, already said i thought he was a better natural defender

And that was in a different thread and in March

You're getting as bad as me for search engine mishaps, adding to your Meireles one

[RedReet]

Emmmmm, already said i thought he was a better natural defender

And that was in a different thread and in March

You're getting as bad as me for search engine mishaps, adding to your Meireles one

Thread: Johnson vs. Kelly:

Kelly for me, improves with each game. Big,strong,atheltic,good positioning and makes somes great bursts forward. Not as good as Johnson technically, but IMO a better defender. Good complaint IMO

Complicated is it?

[BootRoom]

This old chestnut, anyways i'll bite. Without trawling through videos off top of my head he was at fault for Everton's second goal in derby, in build up and not closing down Fellaini for his cross for Naismith. Got torn apart by Mirallas in that game and was lucky Mirallas came off injured. Vs Newcastle didn't spot Cabaye coming in at back post for Ben Arfa cross.

Two games with two defensive lapses that cost us, nothing hyperbole as you suggested, just what happened. Those are the mistakes the young lad was punished for, he was making mistakes in most games passing and positional. Not ready for our first team.

Anyways there you are, a nice little aide-mémoire as you so condescendingly posted above

I've already stated that he got ripped vs. the Bitters, and your 'analysis' of the Newcastle goal is weak to say the least. Here's another aide-mémoire for you:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIO22UMnTI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIO22UMnTI[/ame]

Skrtel and Wisdom end up in the middle of the goal with a man each. How can Wisdom just leave that man in the middle completely unmarked to pick up Cabaye? Even when Cabaye receives the ball, Wisdom is still somewhat occupied by the other Newcastle player. To blame Wisdom for that goal is quite frankly ridiculous; the defence had been dragged too far towards Reina's left post and we didn't have enough men in position to cover all the Newcastle players. Pause the footage at 0:02, just before the cross is made to get a good idea of the state we had got in to - 3 players 'dealing' with the cross, Skrtel and Wisdom with a man each, and Cabaye unattended beyond the far post.

I look forward to the analysis of Wisdom's other 'very evident' mistakes that have caused us to ship all these goals.

[danperkins]

Thread: Johnson vs. Kelly



Complicated is it?

Was in Kelly v Johnson thread

Red, i already agreed with you that i said Kelly was a better "defender". I really don't remember saying he was a better all round player like you suggested?

here's my posts in the thread:

Johnson had super game today although got sold few times. For me Kelly is a better defender but no doubts Johnson is better attacking. Nice problem to have IMO

The Kelly/Johnson comparison seems to divide but i suppose it's a good problem for us to have.

i remember Alan Hansen going through several of Johnson's performances in games and he absolutely picked him apart for his defensive mistakes. Defensively positioning and body positioning as a defender in particular, Hansen said.

IMO Kelly is a naturally better defender.

I've been trawling through google mate trying to get it, was on match of the day 2 i think good while back, sorry can't find it.

I know pundits are pundits, but IMO when Hansen,like Lee Dixon (two top defenders) are critiquing footballing defense it's usually spot on. He basically was highlighting Glen Johnson's body shape when players attacking him and his positional frailties. Was a great critique of how not to defend, and just highlighted some of the unnatural aspects of Johnson's defending in certain games.

By no means a damning critique but was very interesting IMO.

Enrique is a beast. What a signing!!!

I love the way even if he gets beaten first time around you always expect him to recover. Didn't someone mention before that he has the best one on one stats over any LB in the league? or did i make that up

And yup i'm of the opinion that defenders should be able to defend first and foremost, and anything after that is a bonus. Incidents like Johnson being flat footed against Mata and being sold by Malouda last night, would have been highlighted if something had of came of it but thankfully nothing did, although Agger and Enrique were terrible for their goal last night. In saying that i did think Johnson was very good last night and his goal was outstanding.

I suppose Kelly does have time on his side.

Kelly for me, improves with each game. Big,strong,atheltic,good positioning and makes somes great bursts forward. Not as good as Johnson technically, but IMO a better defender. Good complaint IMO

Soooooo?

[danperkins]

I've already stated that he got ripped vs. the Bitters, and your 'analysis' of the Newcastle goal is weak to say the least. Here's another aide-mémoire for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIO22UMnTI

Skrtel and Wisdom end up in the middle of the goal with a man each. How can Wisdom just leave that man in the middle completely unmarked to pick up Cabaye? Even when Cabaye receives the ball, Wisdom is still somewhat occupied by the other Newcastle player. To blame Wisdom for that goal is quite frankly ridiculous; the defence had been dragged too far towards Reina's left post and we didn't have enough men in position to cover all the Newcastle players. Pause the footage at 0:02, just before the cross is made to get a good idea of the state we had got in to - 3 players 'dealing' with the cross, Skrtel and Wisdom with a man each, and Cabaye unattended beyond the far post.

I look forward to the analysis of Wisdom's other 'very evident' mistakes that have caused us to ship all these goals.

Em, Wisdom gets dragged in and doesn't spot the run by Cabaye. Gerrard asleep to Cisse. At no stage does Wisdom have a man

Also, no need to try be a smart arse mate, just having a debate not a competition

[RedReet]

Was in Kelly v Johnson thread

Red, i already agreed with you that i said Kelly was a better "defender". I really don't remember saying he was a better all round player like you suggested?

here's my posts in the thread:













Soooooo....

Why are you so fixated on what you think I meant by 'all round'?

The question wasn't who was a better defender, it was who people preferred at RB. In March last year you responded Kelly, which to me indicates that you thought Kelly was a better RB than Johnson, but maybe I'm just mad for assuming that.

[danperkins]

Why are you so fixated on what you think I meant by 'all round'?

The question wasn't who was a better defender, it was who people preferred at RB. In March last year you responded Kelly, which to me indicates that you thought Kelly was a better RB than Johnson, but maybe I'm just mad for assuming that.

Dear jesus

You thought he was a better all round RB. (And it was only towards the end of last season).

A RB is still a defender whatever way you want to swing it, i said Kelly was a better natural defender than Johnson as my posts prove. I also said Johnson was technically better and clearly Johnson is better going forward, then i mentioned what Hansen said. You said all round i didn't... hence why i mentioned it

You responded to my post to someone else remember? Anyways look this is getting ridiculously tedious. My posts are there for all to see, as are yours.

In short, i feel kelly is better natural defender but Johnson is better option for us especially under Rogers, and rightly so is ahead of kelly at RB. Can we please for the love of st.jude leave it there and agree to disagree....or something like two adults

[BootRoom]

Em, Wisdom gets dragged in and doesn't spot the run by Cabaye. Gerrard asleep to Cisse. At no stage does Wisdom have a man

The whole defence got dragged to Reina's left, that's the problem, plus Gerrard watching from afar. Are you suggesting Wisdom didn't know Cisse was there? Or Wisdom should have vacated the middle of the goal and let Cisse stand there on his own? I just don't see how Wisdom can be blamed in that situation for what happened. Plus it was a ****ing good finish from Cabaye - it wasn't an open-goal tap in from a yard out

Also, no need to try be a smart arse mate, just having a debate not a competition

Who's being a smart arse? You've made some bold claims about the cost Wisdom has had to the team, and I'm trying to find out what those claims are based on.

[danperkins]

I've said what i have to say, this is boring

[RedReet]

The irony.

[Red_Polo]

Thread: Kelly vs Johnson

Context: People saying who they'd prefer at right back

Dan: "Kelly for me..."

Surely that's all that needed to be brought up, case closed?

[Mostar]

You thought he was a better all round RB. (And it was only towards the end of last season).

Johnson was excellent last year too, one of our best performers under Kenny in his season and half.

Anyway, there isn't that much between Kelly and Wisdom, both good defenders, both good athlete's but both let down in final third.

Neither of them can give us anything offensively.

They could potentially have future in a CB position but not as fullbacks for that very reason.

[RedReet]

Thread: Kelly vs Johnson

Context: People saying who they'd prefer at right back

Dan: "Kelly for me..."

Surely that's all that needed to be brought up, case closed?

I know, don't know why I got involved.