La Liga 2011-12

[Chrono]

They should start by not having a complete nut bag as a manager.

[Shaggy]

this. i was told over and over to just wait until one rob fowler got to his late 20s, as these are the peak years for a striker. was told similar about owen. i just don't think it's true. there's other examples. real ronaldo, ronaldinho...

I also agree with this, IMO most attacking players peak in their early/mid 20s these days, not the old cliche of 28/29.

[little dave hedgehog]

[Gingawaria]

For me, international football is the highest level to play at...the greatest players in the past have proved their worth at international level so why shouldn't Messi do the same?

Is he gonna be happy to be renowned as the greatest club level footballer?????

Time is on Messi's side & I sincerely hope that he does take that step & become the greatest at the level as he has it in him whether he does it like Maradona (1986) or with his teammates like that Argentinian team in 1978...

He will get his critics if he doesn't succeed in international level & that Argentinian squad is so powerful, the potential is there to dominate world football as mentioned earlier which would elevate Messi to the status of his precedessors, Maradona, Zidane, Pele etc.

I honestly don't see how it's relevant whether he does it at international level. For me, the Champions League is a much higher level than the World Cup.

Someone on here made an excellent point a few weeks back where they said what if after Messi, the next player in the world comes from some footballing backwater like Botswana, they're never going to win the World Cup, but does that make them any less a fantastic player?

Yes, it'd be a shame if Messi doesn't win a World Cup but he's still the greatest of all time regardless of whether he wins one or not.

[danperkins]

Another perspective on how good Messi is at the moment, he is closing in on Deak 66 year old (unofficial) record for scoring most goals in a season in European football. The list goes:

66 Ferenc Deák, Szentlörinc (Ungarn 1945/46)
63 Dixie Dean, Everton (England 1927/28)
62 Jimmy McGrory, Celtic (Skotland 1927/28)
59 Jimmy McGrory, Celtic (Skotland 1926/27)
59 Ferenc Deák, Ferencvaros (Ungarn 1948/49)
59 Refik Resmja, Partizan Tirana (Albanien 1950/51)
57 Jim Forrest, RAngers FC (Skotland 1964/65)
56 Gyula Zsengellér, Ujpest FC (Ungarn 1938/39)
56 Aleksandrs Cekulajevs, Narva Trans (Letland, kalenderåret 2011)
55 Mário Jardel, Sporting (Portugal 2001/02)
54 Lionel Messi, FC Barcelona (Spanien 2011/12)

Messi still have 10 La Liga games to go and at least 2 more CL matches and a Spanish cup final. So somewhere between 13 and 16 games left depending on CL to score 13 goals. Almost impossible to imagine him not doing that at his current rate!

Deak scored his 66 goals in 34 games, so that will still stand as the best - but still !

Amazing stuff, how many has Ronaldo got??

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

I also agree with this, IMO most attacking players peak in their early/mid 20s these days, not the old cliche of 28/29.

I think there is no real way to tell.. Some players do get better with age, they learn how to play to their strengths better. Drogba is an example and he probably did peak at 28.

There is also this strange 'fact' that 'Keepers get better with age.. Again there are examples of this, but the very best such as Casillas was fantastic from about 20/21.. Reina was fantastic around 24. People like things to be boxed off and pretty looking, its a blind way of thinking IMO.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say in anyway Casillas or Pepe were at their very best at those exact ages, but just saying what usually gives the impression of them peaking older is media recognition and usually ignorance.

[elrichio86]

Nowadays the Champions League is of a much higher standard than the World Cup. In previous years (for Maradona and Pele, for instance) this wasn't the case - nothing even came close to the World Cup.

The only thing you could hold against Messi's claim to be the best is that he's only played for Barca - a team thats setup to get the best out of him. If he could produce the same level for another club, in a different league maybe, would remove any doubts.

[Shaggy]

I honestly don't see how it's relevant whether he does it at international level. For me, the Champions League is a much higher level than the World Cup.

Someone on here made an excellent point a few weeks back where they said what if after Messi, the next player in the world comes from some footballing backwater like Botswana, they're never going to win the World Cup, but does that make them any less a fantastic player?

That was me

Next world great, plays for Real Madrid, scores 125 goals in one season and plays like some sort of super human magician, making Messi look like Andy Impey. He's from The Gabon. Would people still come out with the same ****e about the World Cup? No chance!

I think there is no real way to tell.. Some players do get better with age, they learn how to play to their strengths better. Drogba is an example and he probably did peak at 28.

There is also this strange 'fact' that 'Keepers get better with age.. Again there are examples of this, but the very best such as Casillas was fantastic from about 20/21.. Reina was fantastic around 24. People like things to be boxed off and pretty looking, its a blind way of thinking IMO.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say in anyway Casillas or Pepe were at their very best at those exact ages, but just saying what usually gives the impression of them peaking older is media recognition and usually ignorance.

Yeah fair points mate

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

Nowadays the Champions League is of a much higher standard than the World Cup. In previous years (for Maradona and Pele, for instance) this wasn't the case - nothing even came close to the World Cup.

The only thing you could hold against Messi's claim to be the best is that he's only played for Barca - a team thats setup to get the best out of him. If he could produce the same level for another club, in a different league maybe, would remove any doubts.

The older generation will be the ones that don't think of Messi as the greatest, they will have memories of the World Cup as the grand stage. People of a younger age will recognise the CL as the biggest stage and its them who will carry his name as the greatest forward.

[Muddled]

I also agree with this, IMO most attacking players peak in their early/mid 20s these days, not the old cliche of 28/29.

I think the Ronaldinho and Ronaldo examples speak more of their fall from grace, rather than peaking early. Look at Gerrard, Zidane, Figo etc.

[Shaggy]

Fair points...I suppose I'm referring to a particular type of player, and definitely not midfielders or defenders.

FWIW I think Messi is in his prime now, talk of him peaking at 28/29 is wide of the mark IMO. Perhaps that's just because I can't imagine him getting much better, if at all.

[The_weatherman]

Fair points...I suppose I'm referring to a particular type of player, and definitely not midfielders or defenders.

FWIW I think Messi is in his prime now, talk of him peaking at 28/29 is wide of the mark IMO. Perhaps that's just because I can't imagine him getting much better, if at all.

Maybe, but I think Messi is different from those other players in that he can do everything, has fantastic technical ability and seems to be adding things into his locker, e.g. the delightful chip.

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

Maybe, but I think Messi is different from those other players in that he can do everything, has fantastic technical ability and seems to be adding things into his locker, e.g. the delightful chip.

He's just 24 and although he's improved again this year, is there anything left? I know that sounds a bit of a nothing statement but the boy has everything at his disposal already he's scarily good!

Edi: Did he also not suffer with a lot of hamstring injuries during his younger years? I hope they don't crop up again as he ages.

[Chazza]

Villarreal 1 all with Madrid

Jose and Ramos sent off

[ChesterDave]

Ramos is an utter cunt. He shoul be banned for a long time.

Thats about 15 career red cards playing for a team that usually has more of the ball than their lesser opponents and he is still only 24 or so.