Manchester United

[Muddled]

Plus we had Ruddock too. But we were a very good team to watch, and we won the Coca Cola Cup, so there's a trophy with that system.

I'm not sure van Gaal's stubbornness is such a problem. He knows his squad is awful. He knows what he wants to do with it. What is the point in playing a system that you don't believe in until you get the players that you want, then changing it? It's better to get everyone playing it from day 1, take the teething problems on the chin whilst you assess who can play and who can't, then ship out the dead woods and bring the fresh woods.

Short term pain and humiliation for long term gain and success. If he is given time (and he will be).

He has his eye on the bigger picture, a rarity in British football. I think he will get it right over time, but it is a massive job.

I suppose we can look at Rodgers' time with us. All the chat during his early months was how we would see a rigid 4-3-3, how Glen Johnson was going to have the time of his life and Reina was the perfect sweeper-keeper. Rodgers now had a higher calibre of player, but that system didn't suit the players.

Rodgers tweaked his system to the players he had at his disposal and we reaped the rewards. Rodgers was reactive to the situation and was confident in his own ability to tailor tactics that benefited the players. Over several transfer windows when we have the squad Rodgers has built, maybe we will revert back to a 4-3-3.

Van Gaal has done the opposite (so far). It's early days and Rodgers has the benefit of time, but Van Gaal isn't really changing things mid-game. It seems to be 3-5-2 and that's that. I completely see your point about installing his methods from the off and stubbornness could actually be confidence, but in the cut throat world of top, top football there has to be some flexibility to get those important points on the board.

It could come good and Van Gaal will be applauded, I'm sure. At the moment, it's a £220m gamble.

[dom9]

I suppose we can look at Rodgers' time with us. All the chat during his early months was how we would see a rigid 4-3-3, how Glen Johnson was going to have the time of his life and Reina was the perfect sweeper-keeper. Rodgers now had a higher calibre of player, but that system didn't suit the players.

Rodgers tweaked his system to the players he had at his disposal and we reaped the rewards. Rodgers was reactive to the situation and was confident in his own ability to tailor tactics that benefited the players. Over several transfer windows when we have the squad Rodgers has built, maybe we will revert back to a 4-3-3.

Van Gaal has done the opposite (so far). It's early days and Rodgers has the benefit of time, but Van Gaal isn't really changing things mid-game. It seems to be 3-5-2 and that's that. I completely see your point about installing his methods from the off and stubbornness could actually be confidence, but in the cut throat world of top, top football there has to be some flexibility to get those important points on the board.

It could come good and Van Gaal will be applauded, I'm sure. At the moment, it's a £220m gamble.

Let's all hope that he massively ****s it up.

[Muddled]

Let's all hope that he massively ****s it up.

Definitely. Of gargantuan proportions.

[dom9]

Absolutement.

[Chazza]

Lovely debating.

[Catrin]

In my very humble onion.

3-5-2 doesn't work because most teams play one up top and plenty of width. As such, two players are wasted and often push up resulting in a dysfunctional back line. The two wing backs can be pushed back, which can stiffle their attacks which results in all attacking play being funneling through the centre of the park where their midfield can be matched and will never be over-run.

It's suitable for slow, methodical approach play or if you have boss wingers and an organised defence. It's **** for quick attacking transitions and building counter-attacks.

Or something like that. El_Matador will fill in the gaps.

But in general ... Manchester United

With the right players I think it could work quite well. I suppose they need central defenders who can step up into midfield as needed and also full-backs who can attack rather than wingers who can't really defend.

What seems a bit weird is quite how badly they've adapted to the new system. From what I've seen of them so far their movement has been terrible as none of them seem completely certain that they're where they're supposed to be on the pitch.

[dom9]

Lovely debating.

Masterful.

[Muddled]

With the right players I think it could work quite well. I suppose they need central defenders who can step up into midfield as needed and also full-backs who can attack rather than wingers who can't really defend.

What seems a bit weird is quite how badly they've adapted to the new system. From what I've seen of them so far their movement has been terrible as none of them seem completely certain that they're where they're supposed to be on the pitch.

It's a good point you raise. Perhaps Kluivert's influence shouldn't be underestimated. Maybe Van Gaal's direct approach needed a softer touch from Kluivert who hammered home some of their tactics. As Van Gaal has had Ryan Giggs sat on his lap and told to accommodate him, maybe that is having an impact on getting the message across.

[dww]

I'm not a big fan of a 3-5-2 formation but I think some of the crowing that it doesn't work is premature. I think a large part of the work being done by van Gaal is likely to be about making his squad tactically versatile and capable of executing the types of game plans and tactics he has usually used.

He switched to a 3-5-2 type formation with Holland because he wanted to accommodate van Persie and Robben and hide the weakness in his CBs. I think at United much the same logic applies (but with Mata, Rooney and van Persie the luxuries being accommodated). I'm not saying that Rooney is lazy but he doesn't seem to gel well with RvP and, like a young Gerrard, he seems to use a lot of energy unintelligently.

If he gets time I think the work he has done/is doing will improve the players he has (in particular the young ones) and give a base to build a good team. In the last two seasons the managers at United seem to have made it their mission to make the least coherent squad possible and the question is how long will that take to untangle. I don't think it will happen in time for United to get a CL place myself but I wouldn't rule it out.

[Red_Polo]

I'm not a big fan of 3 at the back, but I think it's less a question of the formation being inherently bad and more a question of it being insane with the players Utd have available to them.

[Assassin]

3-5-2 will work, you just need the right players to play the system. The problem with the scum is many of their players would struggle in a pub team

Van Butthead, is a little long in the tooth and will not change his philosophy regardless (its all a little like that useless article the bodge)

Long may it continue......

[dww]

I'm not a big fan of 3 at the back, but I think it's less a question of the formation being inherently bad and more a question of it being insane with the players Utd have available to them.

I'm not sure any formation seems very sensible with the squad United had. Who would your pick at right back in a 4? I kind of feel that it was felt spending £100m+ on getting a half sensible looking defense would not be popular and unless a way was found to create more than last season probably wouldn't lead to the top 4 anyway.

For me the 3-4-1-2 type approach taken has a logic to it. Play RvP, Rooney and Mata in their best positions and in an ideal world the formation allows you to match the opposition numbers in midfield (which given that losing the midfield battle seemed one of the biggest problems last season must be considered a high priority I would have thought).

[Leyton388]

I come on this thread and expect to see some high quality piss takes and people are debating the pros and cons of 3-5-2? We shouldn't give a **** what formation they are using as we've been waiting 25 years for this and its fantastic. So come on peeps more piss taking is needed.

[Exiled_red]

I come on this thread and expect to see some high quality piss takes and people are debating the pros and cons of 3-5-2? We shouldn't give a **** what formation they are using as we've been waiting 25 years for this and its fantastic. So come on peeps more piss taking is needed.

[BubbaZanetti]

Big point for them today, this could be crucial come the end of the season