Desperation from Utd?

[G]

Are we all still ok with 'Drunken Bacon face' though?

[Neil Young]

City didn't cope with the pressure during the mid season slump,it was only when United had a seemingly un-asailable lead did they start to play again.

They have the biggest budget and the better players for sure but they have been buying expensive players for a number of years and it didn't lead to success straight away.

They been through a few "star" signings before they found the right blend that led them to the holy grail.

You need money for sure but far more important is spending it well. The likes of Kompany,Hart,Zabaleta,Clichy and Kolarov are just as important as the no risk superstars like Tevez, Toure and Aguero.

Slur has been good in that regard until recent years,helped massively by their youth system.

Man City have got better every year since Mancini took over. Coincidence?

So Man City threw away their lead because of Mancini whereas Man United threw away their lead despite F3rguson.

Of course F3rguson has been an excellent manager. But my point is it's more about right time and right place than any unique talent on his part.

Much the same applies to Mourinho - if he has a special talent it's to do with choosing the right job and ensuring he has everything he needs, i.e. getting himself into the right place at the right time with the right resources and back-up. And much the same applies to the rest of them too.

F3rguson works hard and knows what he wants and how to get it. He's a bright bloke with a lot of self-belief. He deserves respect for what Man United have achieved with him in charge. He's good and he's lucky.

And that's enough.

[G]

Man City have got better every year since Mancini took over. Coincidence?

So Man City threw away their lead because of Mancini whereas Man United threw away their lead despite F3rguson.

Of course F3rguson has been an excellent manager. But my point is it's more about right time and right place than any unique talent on his part.

Much the same applies to Mourinho - if he has a special talent it's to do with choosing the right job and ensuring he has everything he needs, i.e. getting himself into the right place at the right time with the right resources and back-up. And much the same applies to the rest of them too.

F3rguson works hard and knows what he wants and how to get it. He's a bright bloke with a lot of self-belief. He deserves respect for what Man United have achieved with him in charge. He's good and he's lucky.

And that's enough.

No not a coincidence,They kept buying expensive players until they ended up with the right ones for them.They have the budget to do that,nobody else bar PSG and Chelsea can do that so everyone else has to be far more accurate with how they spend their money,United included.

Not what I mean about the managers either.I don't rate Mancini,think in general he's too defensive minded and he was responsible for them blowing such a lead,along with the pressure. he played it very well once they got a sniff of a chance at the end though but the pressure was off,nothing was expected of them and it should never have got to that point.It was nearly a Keegan effort.

Ginsoak has proven time and again that he can handle the pressure of title challenges so I don' think their slump was as much to do with him as it was to do with the fact their players aren't as good these days and maybe they thought it was won. If complacency was an issue then some portion of blame can be placed at his feet for allowing it.The fact they were in with a chance on the last day given how the season went and the undoubted inferiority of their playing staff is testament to his ability as a manager.

[kris90210]

Man City have got better every year since Mancini took over. Coincidence?

So Man City threw away their lead because of Mancini whereas Man United threw away their lead despite F3rguson.

Of course F3rguson has been an excellent manager. But my point is it's more about right time and right place than any unique talent on his part.

Much the same applies to Mourinho - if he has a special talent it's to do with choosing the right job and ensuring he has everything he needs, i.e. getting himself into the right place at the right time with the right resources and back-up. And much the same applies to the rest of them too.

F3rguson works hard and knows what he wants and how to get it. He's a bright bloke with a lot of self-belief. He deserves respect for what Man United have achieved with him in charge. He's good and he's lucky.

And that's enough.

Interesting posts, Neil. I don't really buy in to him being 'lucky' as such. He was lucky that Utd had Giggs, Scholes, Beckham and Neville come through at the same time. But he managed them amazingly well, all things considered. You can be lucky a few times, but if you repeat success again and again and again, then there has to be more to it. It's like when people were calling us 'unlucky' last season in relation to our finishing. Fine, if it happens once or twice, but if something keeps happening then that's a sign that something's not right.

'Good' doesn't really do him justice - I ****ing hate the bloke, and Shaggy's right, he's a deluded hypocrit. But he's a fantastic manager.

Just look at them over the past few seasons. They have nowhere near the best side in the league and yet they constantly challenge. I bet they finish above one of City and Chelsea again this season, despite the money they're throwing about.

I bet all of us can't wait for the day he retires.

[Neil Young]

No not a coincidence,They kept buying expensive players until they ended up with the right ones for them.They have the budget to do that,nobody else bar PSG and Chelsea can do that so everyone else has to be far more accurate with how they spend their money,United included.

Not what I mean about the managers either.I don't rate Mancini,think in general he's too defensive minded and he was responsible for them blowing such a lead,along with the pressure. he played it very well once they got a sniff of a chance at the end though but the pressure was off,nothing was expected of them and it should never have got to that point.It was nearly a Keegan effort.

Ginsoak has proven time and again that he can handle the pressure of title challenges so I don' think their slump was as much to do with him as it was to do with the fact their players aren't as good these days and maybe they thought it was won. If complacency was an issue then some portion of blame can be placed at his feet for allowing it.The fact they were in with a chance on the last day given how the season went and the undoubted inferiority of their playing staff is testament to his ability as a manager.

I can't help thinking your argument is contradictory. I mean, it's a strange coincidence that F3rguson's ability to handle the pressure and get them over the line happens to be when he has better players than his opposite number has. Yet when his players are inferior then he's not able to have that effect.

Doesn't that call into question his magic touch as a manager?

How long did it take F3rguson to build a team that won the league? Ok, we all know it was longer than it's taken Man City since Mansour took over. So you can't really dismiss Mancini by saying it took him time to achieve his "Holy Grail".

The fact is Mancini won the league last season and F3rguson didn't. He has to have some credit for that - more than you're giving him and less than others might do. And, as I've said, F3rguson deserves credit for all his title wins but I'm arguing his importance is probably overstated.

I've argued before on here that he's a great manager, mainly to counter the tribalist instincts we all have here that make us want to understate his achievements. And of course his record is fantastic. But I've re-evaluated it in the light of what I've read.

Try googling WYSIATI and see what comes up. It's instructive I think.

[Pablo]

I can't help thinking your argument is contradictory. I mean, it's a strange coincidence that F3rguson's ability to handle the pressure and get them over the line happens to be when he has better players than his opposite number has. Yet when his players are inferior then he's not able to have that effect.

Doesn't that call into question his magic touch as a manager?

How long did it take F3rguson to build a team that won the league? Ok, we all know it was longer than it's taken Man City since Mansour took over. So you can't really dismiss Mancini by saying it took him time to achieve his "Holy Grail".

The fact is Mancini won the league last season and F3rguson didn't. He has to have some credit for that - more than you're giving him and less than others might do. And, as I've said, F3rguson deserves credit for all his title wins but I'm arguing his importance is probably overstated.

I've argued before on here that he's a great manager, mainly to counter the tribalist instincts we all have here that make us want to understate his achievements. And of course his record is fantastic. But I've re-evaluated it in the light of what I've read.

Try googling WYSIATI and see what comes up. It's instructive I think.

I think it shows a real lack of class from yourself that you have to deface his name like that

[G]

I

I can't help thinking your argument is contradictory. I mean, it's a strange coincidence that F3rguson's ability to handle the pressure and get them over the line happens to be when he has better players than his opposite number has. Yet when his players are inferior then he's not able to have that effect.

Doesn't that call into question his magic touch as a manager?

How long did it take F3rguson to build a team that won the league? Ok, we all know it was longer than it's taken Man City since Mansour took over. So you can't really dismiss Mancini by saying it took him time to achieve his "Holy Grail".

The fact is Mancini won the league last season and F3rguson didn't. He has to have some credit for that - more than you're giving him and less than others might do. And, as I've said, F3rguson deserves credit for all his title wins but I'm arguing his importance is probably overstated.

I've argued before on here that he's a great manager, mainly to counter the tribalist instincts we all have here that make us want to understate his achievements. And of course his record is fantastic. But I've re-evaluated it in the light of what I've read.

Try googling WYSIATI and see what comes up. It's instructive I think.

Fair points but at the end of the day if the roles were reversed and Ginsoak had Mancinis squad and vice versa would the same have happened.

No chance IMO he'd have walked the league as Mancini should have. so yeah its partly talented players, partly budget to buy them and most definitely partly the managers talents in getting the most out of what is at his disposal. Mancini got there in the end but it should never have been as close as it was which in my mind makes him inferior to his Manchester counterpart who got inferior players to within an inch of usurping their hugely talented neighbours.

He has won leagues when his nearest rivals where as good as if not better than his squad, that's down to him.

[Neil Young]

Interesting posts, Neil. I don't really buy in to him being 'lucky' as such. He was lucky that Utd had Giggs, Scholes, Beckham and Neville come through at the same time. But he managed them amazingly well, all things considered. You can be lucky a few times, but if you repeat success again and again and again, then there has to be more to it. It's like when people were calling us 'unlucky' last season in relation to our finishing. Fine, if it happens once or twice, but if something keeps happening then that's a sign that something's not right.

'Good' doesn't really do him justice - I ****ing hate the bloke, and Shaggy's right, he's a deluded hypocrit. But he's a fantastic manager.

Just look at them over the past few seasons. They have nowhere near the best side in the league and yet they constantly challenge. I bet they finish above one of City and Chelsea again this season, despite the money they're throwing about.

I bet all of us can't wait for the day he retires.

Decline is a long process. Look at us - we've been declining for over twenty years and we're still top 8, maybe a little higher this season.

Man United have plenty of players who know what it takes to win and it helps they have an aura of invincibility, especially at Old Trafford. By buying into the myth of the F3rguson Effect, we would basically be reinforcing that myth.

I don't think Man United are in decline, although if the Glazers keep plundering them, we might look back and see that this is when it started.

The trouble with the evidence of repeated success for F3rguson's greatness is that throughout that period they have been the richest club in the country, apart from the instances I've mentioned, and often the richest club in the world. Yet he's only won the European Cup twice. If anything, he's underachieved there.

Of course it's fair to say he could have f*cked up on many occasions over the years and he hasn't. If so, then he's great because he hasn't wasted the opportunities luck has given him. And, to my mind, that's a funny kind of greatness.

[Neil Young]

Fair points but at the end of the day if the roles were reversed and Ginsoak had Mancinis squad and vice versa would the same have happened.

No chance IMO he'd have walked the league as Mancini should have. so yeah its partly talented players, partly budget to buy them and most definitely partly the managers talents in getting the most out of what is at his disposal. Mancini got there in the end but it should never have been as close as it was which in my mind makes him inferior to his Manchester counterpart who got inferior players to within an inch of usurping their hugely talented neighbours.

We have no way of knowing what would have happened had the roles been reversed. So I don't really think that's the strongest evidence for your case.

[G]

We have no way of knowing what would have happened had the roles been reversed. So I don't really think that's the strongest evidence for your case.

Ok take Chelsea. The same squad of players that mourihno had winning things stopped winning when he left, coincidence? United meanwhile began winning again when he left. It's not all down to who has the best players but how the manager uses them.

[Neil Young]

Oh sure, I agree, less good managers can f*ck things up. I just think the contribution of all managers is overstated.

And if it's overstated for football managers, who do at least have quite a lot of control over what happens "at the sharp end", imagine how much more overstated it is for chief executives and other 'geniuses of the modern world'.

But back to football: if we're going to take Chelsea, your logic inexorably leads to the conclusion that Roberto di Matteo is on the way to becoming a managerial great for the way he got Chelsea to win the Champions League. He took a bunch of (supposedly) infighting misfits in their declining years and in a few months pulled them around to win the greatest prize in club football.

Or maybe a decent enough manager is good enough and it's all about the players themselves getting their act together...? So long as they're good enough to start with of course.

[Alex]

Oh sure, I agree, less good managers can f*ck things up. I just think the contribution of all managers is overstated.

And if it's overstated for football managers, who do at least have quite a lot of control over what happens "at the sharp end", imagine how much more overstated it is for chief executives and other 'geniuses of the modern world'.

But back to football: if we're going to take Chelsea, your logic inexorably leads to the conclusion that Roberto di Matteo is on the way to becoming a managerial great for the way he got Chelsea to win the Champions League. He took a bunch of (supposedly) infighting misfits in their declining years and in a few months pulled them around to win the greatest prize in club football.

Or maybe a decent enough manager is good enough and it's all about the players themselves getting their act together...? So long as they're good enough to start with of course.

The difference between a good and bad manager is plus or minus 10 points in my mind.

[Neil Young]

Ok, I've been thinking about what i've said and I don't want to come across as saying I think the manager is unimportant. So, for the record, he's probably the most important individual at the club.

The best managers bring something different to their club, the league, even the game. Whether it's a process thing designed to get more out of the players (e.g. better nutrition, more training with the ball, etc.), a playing innovation designed to improve the team on the pitch (e.g. Hodgson's 442 in Sweden in the 1970s, Rafa's tactical sophistication), man-management (e.g. Shankly's building up of his players and denigration of the opposition), they all bring something new.

I don't know enough about Man United to know what F3rguson has brought. It's obviously something. But whatever it is, it's not magic.

If you want to look at an undoubtedly great management team, then look at the success of - yes, you've guessed it - the GB cycling team. They've had the money, sure. They've had the talent at their disposal. And they've brought it all together and totally dominated the last two Olympic games, and made history in between with winning both the world championship and the ultimate prize (Tour de France obviously).

Of course there are important differences between the competitive set-ups of cycling and football. I think the crucial point here though is that we can discuss the specific things done by the GB cycling management team that have contributed to their success.

It's not so clear quite what F3rguson (or, to be fair, any other manager) has done that's made such a difference. All too often it's talked about in terms of generalities, with the underlying assumption that his success speaks for itself. Well, I don't think it does.

[G]

I had a long reply typed out but I can't be arsed .

He's a cunt, on that we can all agree

[Pablo]

I had a long reply typed out but I can't be arsed .

He's a cunt, on that we can all agree

Agreed. If only for the pretending to be a dog thing, let alone everything else.