Other Games 23/34/25

[Mark79]

The ‘letter of the law’ is absolutely clear in this instance though, no interpretation is required

Did he make his body bigger by using his arm/hand? No, the ball hit his hand which was in front of his head. If you take away his hand, the ball would hit his head. No advantage is gained from it being there.

Was it deliberate?No, he simply cannot get his arm out of the way due to the challenge from the Celtic player. There is no reason he would want to have his hand between the ball and his head.

When you read the ‘letter of the law’, VARs decision to get involved in this just becomes even more baffling.

You can argue it that way. It can also be argued that his hand is above head height throughout the challenge. The challenge form the Celtic player is largely irrelevant, because the guidance doesnt take that into accout (common sense obviously would). So I disagree that interpretation doesn't come in to it at all. Which isn't to say that I agree with the outcome.

[rudedog]

You can argue it that way. It can also be argued that his hand is above head height throughout the challenge. The challenge form the Celtic player is largely irrelevant, because the guidance doesnt take that into accout (common sense obviously would). So I disagree that interpretation doesn't come in to it at all. Which isn't to say that I agree with the outcome.

The height of his hand is irrelevant according to the letter of the law though (which is the point you were making). The letter of the law only mentions if you have made your body bigger by using your arm/hand and the ball strikes it, not what height it is at.

You are flogging a dead horse here

[Mark79]

The height of his hand is irrelevant according to the letter of the law though (which is the point you were making). The letter of the law only mentions if you have made your body bigger by using your arm/hand and the ball strikes it, not what height it is at.

You are flogging a dead horse here

How have you not made yourself bigger if your hand is above head height?

I'm really not flogging anything, but happy to disagree.

[rudedog]

How have you not made yourself bigger if your hand is above head height?

I'm really not flogging anything, but happy to disagree.

The ball didn’t hit him above head height though

[Mark79]

The ball didn’t hit him above head height though

"By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised"

He had his hand up. The fact that the contact from the Celtic player moved it, doesn't come in to consideration.

The article I posted says same, which shows I'm not alone in reading it that way.

[ChesterDave]

Bradford shaming themselves in this losss

[SB]

Bradford shaming themselves in this losss

What have they done? The fans you mean?

[rudedog]

"By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised"

He had his hand up. The fact that the contact from the Celtic player moved it, doesn't come in to consideration.

The article I posted says same, which shows I'm not alone in reading it that way.

Well it should do as the previous sentence in the guidance states this -
“ when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation”

All players arms go up when they jump, he just couldn’t move it back down as the Celtic player was keeping it raised.

[ChesterDave]

What have they done? The fans you mean?

Players. Reminiscent of the tackles flying in when Spurs played Chelsea the year Leicester won the league. Full on kicking out at opponents

[Mark79]

Well it should do as the previous sentence in the guidance states this -
“ when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation”

All players arms go up when they jump, he just couldn’t move it back down as the Celtic player was keeping it raised.

It doesn't though, because once again, his arm is already up before the Celtic player has any impact on him.

And 'All' players do not have their arms up above head height as they jump or go for a header. Sorry, that's just not true. And even when they do, then they're taking the risk of the ball hitting them.

[rudedog]

You’re reading the “takes a risk” line in isolation though.

That sentence is part of the explanation of what counts as making the body “unnaturally bigger” — it isn’t a separate offence on its own.

The law doesn’t say:
“if your arm is high and the ball hits it, it’s handball”.

It says the player takes a risk of being penalised IF the arm position is judged to have made the body unnaturally bigger.

That’s the part I don’t think applies here - the ball is hitting an area already occupied by his head, so his arm hasn’t actually extended the space he’s covering.

And the guidance also explicitly says you consider whether the arm position is justifiable by the player’s movement in that specific situation, which is important in an aerial duel.

So the actual wording of the law does not support VAR intervening.

[SB]

Players. Reminiscent of the tackles flying in when Spurs played Chelsea the year Leicester won the league. Full on kicking out at opponents

Crazy

[Mark79]

There's several parts of your response and the edit you needed to make that suggest that you're misreading or ignoring what I'm saying.

Going to have to disagree Rudedog. I've answered all of this already and I'm not going over it all again.

I don't think the guidance is crystal clear, as evidenced by this conversation. And attempting to follow it can lead to losing sight of context and nuance.

[Buzzo]

The key thing is also literally the messaging direct from the Scottish referees association about how this type of incident should be interpreted which was the exact opposite of how this played out. The lack of VAR intervention in the Hearts Motherwell game and then the ref overturning a penalty at the monitor. Each decision directly benefiting Celtic.

The majority of the stills are from AI.
The footage released yesterday from behind the goal is again at best ambiguous. But if anything indicated the ball didn’t hit his hand. The majority even of neutrals who are ex pros seem baffled by the award.

Wonder who has had the most amount of pens and least amount of red cards by a distance this season? You don’t have to think too hard.

Anyway, I hope Hearts deliver the impossible tomorrow. Scottish football needs it to happen.

[peterbread]

Come on Hearts. Pressure is on the ref with all the coverage of the late penalty Celtic got in midweek.