Rafa 'got his tactics wrong'...

[Shaggy]

I agree that we really need a player who can beat a man and so open things up, but I also think that we need to realise that there are few things harder to defend than a side moving the ball about quickly and moving off the ball once they've given it. Its almost impossible to stop.

A side without the "beat a man" player can still unlock teams by doing that. I'd kind of fear for a "beat a man" player in a team playing the way we did yesterday because it'd be very possible to mark him out the game in the way teams started to do against Macmanaman when he was in his pomp.

I think the team has to be the match winner by keeping the ball moving and running off the ball. Otherwise there is a danger of a "let the superstar win it for us" mentality.

I see what you mean mate but I don't necessarily mean "a superstar". Besides, we've already got one whom we really on heavily, but Gerrard isn't the sort of genial player with guile we're badly lacking at the minute. I just think we're suffering for a lack of that particular component.

Sometimes our passing and movement is outstanding - we've scored a lot of great team goals this season - but we don't produce it often enough, and it's baffling when there's so little movement and intuitive passing, as seen yesterday.

[Revo]

its all well and dandy playing the big ball into the box but that ball has to be delivered early and with quality something that we did neither of. it was a stroll for stubbs and howard and we just simply never asked enough questions of the everton back 4. i thought lescott did a fantastic job on pennant but i can barely remember finnan getting into the fray and stretching them. zero balance on the left side and once again riise was asked to play both wide positions from left back. gerrard or alonso should have taken early showers as neither one of them were at the game and it makes me sad to say this but fowler for bellamy at the end was a joke. whether rafa was being a little bit sentimental in giving robbie a few minutes in his last ever derby i dont know but we would of been better served giving gonzales the last 10 minutes to work on his fitness and give those ***** something more to think about

[alunevans]

I see what you mean mate but I don't necessarily mean "a superstar". Besides, we've already got one whom we really on heavily, but Gerrard isn't the sort of genial player with guile we're badly lacking at the minute. I just think we're suffering for a lack of that particular component.

Sometimes our passing and movement is outstanding - we've scored a lot of great team goals this season - but we don't produce it often enough, and it's baffling when there's so little movement and intuitive passing, as seen yesterday.

I didn't mean 'superstar' as such either. I meant there'd be a danger of everyone just lamping it and hoping that "the matchwinner" wins us the match.

You're spot on in saying that we need that sort of player, but I also think there's more to it than that. The team itself needs to get the ball down and moving it about much quicker than we do.

And as you say, we've shown that we can do it because sometimes are passing and movent is fine. I tend to think that wasn't the game plan yesterday. Maybe Rafa felt that with them packing the midfield that the long ball was the best option.

It clearly wasn't working though and I think our pattern of play should have been altered, even if it meant taking off a forward to do it. Our advantage over them is we have better players. I'd rather see us use that advantage rather than be reduced to a lump it and hope routine.

[marcgerard]

I thought the form of the full backs was really important in the way the game panned out. Finnan showed nerves early on and was nt his usual composed self on the ball, but more than that he never supported Pennant that often, allowing them to tuck in because Pennat was isolated whenever he got he ball.

I thought this did become a tactical switch because in the second half we overloaded the left side but partially because of his form Riise seemed unable to deliver anything of note and he and Kuyt seemed to just deny themselves space. But with an overloaded left side it meant Finnan's movement forward needed to be timed really well and more often than not he did nt push too high up the pitch. I thougt we missed a trick with this because I thought Finnan and Pennant could have stretched their back line better than Riise and Kuyt.

We seemed to try and win through attrition yesterday, the movement against Chelsea was absent and although we put alot into the game we did nt really deserve to win it.

[Red_Polo]

Ou tactical approach in the last half an hour or so was absolutely pathetic. Surely you agree. That's a whole third of the game Syd.

[Harv]

I dont care what anyone says. Everton should be ashamed, they had 8 men camped around their goal for the whole second half, the only way we were going to score was by getting a lucky deflection (ala Fat Frank) or hit and absolute belter from distance.

it just wasnt our day.

roll on the Geordies

[Red Chilli]

What do you mean 'like i know' ?

So you think that every single time a manager gets the tactics right, the team wins?

I mean you're typical of that other LFC site, the ones with the anti-Crouch campaign.
You seem to be under the illusion that you are the oracle, the fount of all knowledge, when in actual fact you don't know any more than anyone else.

Like I said, typical.

[disco]

Ou tactical approach in the last half an hour or so was absolutely pathetic. Surely you agree. That's a whole third of the game Syd.

All bollocks. They spent 45 minutes with a minimum of 6-8 people in their own box. Chelsea, Arsenal or Man U only 'break it down' with crosses and long shots (what was Arsenal's equaliser from Bolton, for example). You can't use 'guile' to get past an enormous narrow wall of shirts.

Couldn't be bothered to repeat myself, so copy and pasted it!

[enema of the state]

Seen plenty saying this, about yesterday's game.

I'm sorry, but i think this is bollocks.

Howard made a superb save from Crouch 1st half, and Bellamy put the ball in the net after failing to get himself the right side of the defender. Small margins. If they'd gone the other way, we'd have been 2-0 up and coasting to victory. Feck all to do with tactics, it just didnt happen to be our day.

And that's without mentioning the Crouch chance 2nd half where he didnt connect properly, or Gerrard's free kick...there were several nearly moments which could've gone either way.

We completely controlled the game and were camped in their third for the vast majority. Sometimes the ball just doesnt bounce your way, no matter what tactics you employ. That was yesterday.

I'm interested in what these master tacticians would've done so differently.

nobody thinks tactics are less important in footy than me syd and you have the begining of a point: this game was a couple of inches from being the "carragher" derby and all the frustrations/tactics would have been forgotten

BUT

there were a couple of tactics that didnt work well - and therefore the manager has to accept the ensuing criticism

1. our best striker played wide left and was ineffectual - ALTERNATIVE:he should have been switched to CF for gonzalez, hibbert was not match fit and would have struggled with the pace
2. our beanpole striker had a stinker. ALTERNATIVE: He should have been subbed instead of bellamy.
3. our speedy striker CONSTANTLY looked like hed run in behind alan stubbs and just when stubbs was tiring, he was taken off! ALTERNATIVE: see above
4. joleon lescott looked out of his depth as well as out of his position yet pennant couldnt get past him. ALTERNATIVE: for me it was crying out for gerard to go to the right in the las 15 minutes. hed have made lescott pee his knickers. this would also have pushed xabi forward and increased his chances of a shot on goal from the edge of the box. each time balls dropped to him, he was too deep.

i actually dont think rafas tactics are his strongest suit - although that doesnt mean theyre not very good. i get the impression that his substitutions are virtually always to do with energy levels and rarely tactical. saturday was one occasion when his top level equivalents would all have changed tactics and pulled off crouch.

[tomasjj]

nobody thinks tactics are less important in footy than me syd and you have the begining of a point: this game was a couple of inches from being the "carragher" derby and all the frustrations/tactics would have been forgotten

BUT

there were a couple of tactics that didnt work well - and therefore the manager has to accept the ensuing criticism

1. our best striker played wide left and was ineffectual - ALTERNATIVE:he should have been switched to CF for gonzalez, hibbert was not match fit and would have struggled with the pace
2. our beanpole striker had a stinker. ALTERNATIVE: He should have been subbed instead of bellamy.
3. our speedy striker CONSTANTLY looked like hed run in behind alan stubbs and just when stubbs was tiring, he was taken off! ALTERNATIVE: see above
4. joleon lescott looked out of his depth as well as out of his position yet pennant couldnt get past him. ALTERNATIVE: for me it was crying out for gerard to go to the right in the las 15 minutes. hed have made lescott pee his knickers. this would also have pushed xabi forward and increased his chances of a shot on goal from the edge of the box. each time balls dropped to him, he was too deep.

i actually dont think rafas tactics are his strongest suit - although that doesnt mean theyre not very good. i get the impression that his substitutions are virtually always to do with energy levels and rarely tactical. saturday was one occasion when his top level equivalents would all have changed tactics and pulled off crouch.

Brilliant post and analysis.

[Dhav]

I haven't read this thread, but I'm sure people have already mentioned these observations.

I thought we were too narrow, going straight down the middle where Everton crowded us out, not only having men behind the ball but also getting 2-3 players to surround whichever of our players had the ball.

There was obviously too much long range shooting (dont know if it was a deliberate tactic) but when there's about 6 players in front of you it's obvious that taking a long range shot is either going to hit an Everton player or go into the upper stand.

Too many long balls, which even if Crouch with his height would have won would have found it difficult to hold on to and find a colleague or we would have lost the second ball anyway with so many Everton players being so deep.

Pennant was too eager to come inside, running into the inevitable wall of Everton players rather than gambling and going outside and in behind where he might have had more joy. Again I assume this was not a deliberate tactic but more a case of him being his usual wimpy slef and not brave enough to take a chance.

And I think the key weakness was down the left hand side. It's the one area of the pitch where we didnt try to attack them from so they left it unguarded towards the end. Not sure if Gonzalez was on the bench, but he may have put him on the last 20 mins to try to exploit that. It would have possibly allowed JAR to get further forward as well.

[Craig_H]

I mean you're typical of that other LFC site, the ones with the anti-Crouch campaign.
You seem to be under the illusion that you are the oracle, the fount of all knowledge, when in actual fact you don't know any more than anyone else.

Like I said, typical.

I sense that you're taking this off topic and going for a personal attack - i though that wasnt allowed on here?

Why cant you answer the question RC?

[Craig_H]

nobody thinks tactics are less important in footy than me syd and you have the begining of a point: this game was a couple of inches from being the "carragher" derby and all the frustrations/tactics would have been forgotten

BUT

there were a couple of tactics that didnt work well - and therefore the manager has to accept the ensuing criticism

1. our best striker played wide left and was ineffectual - ALTERNATIVE:he should have been switched to CF for gonzalez, hibbert was not match fit and would have struggled with the pace
2. our beanpole striker had a stinker. ALTERNATIVE: He should have been subbed instead of bellamy.
3. our speedy striker CONSTANTLY looked like hed run in behind alan stubbs and just when stubbs was tiring, he was taken off! ALTERNATIVE: see above
4. joleon lescott looked out of his depth as well as out of his position yet pennant couldnt get past him. ALTERNATIVE: for me it was crying out for gerard to go to the right in the las 15 minutes. hed have made lescott pee his knickers. this would also have pushed xabi forward and increased his chances of a shot on goal from the edge of the box. each time balls dropped to him, he was too deep.

i actually dont think rafas tactics are his strongest suit - although that doesnt mean theyre not very good. i get the impression that his substitutions are virtually always to do with energy levels and rarely tactical. saturday was one occasion when his top level equivalents would all have changed tactics and pulled off crouch.

I take all that on board mate, and yes, you're right in much of what you say.

But you do sometimes get 'one of those days' where it just doesnt happen, whatever you do. The derby struck me as one of those days...

As i say, if we'd got a goal 1st half, which we were unlucky not to, i dont think there'd be much of an issue over the tactics.

[Guest]

Ah DJS, go back on redcafé.net.

Why were we hoofing the ball at every occasion, bypassing the midfield ? Why was Bellamy not used efficiently, i.e most of the times I saw Carra launching the ball onto Bellamy's head from the back ??

I'm surprised most of the press haven't questioned Rafa for playing that way. His only excuse have been that Neverton have been hyper defensive.

You were born for argument's sake mate.

[Craig_H]

Ah fredo...it's a miracle you were born at all mate.