Martin Samuel

[Revo]

ticket snatching and pissing on people are the only valid arguments. nobody knows how many people, legitimate or not actually went through the gates.

[Dhav]

Dude, by implication you are saying that it ok to piss on kids, steal tickets and charge the stadium if demand > supply.

We ****ed up, Uefa ****ed up.

Now let's move on.

Not saying that at all, neither by implication, by inference or otherwise.

All I'm saying is it is not valid to compare the behaviour of the Milan fans with those of our fans as the circumstances are completely different. We should be praising Milan fans for behaving well and not trying to get in ticketless or with forgeries, despite the fact that they had more than enough tickets to meet demand? It's a vacuous argument to say "Milan fans behaved well, so why couldn't Liverpool fans?". What if Milan were only given 10,000 tickets and travelled with 15,000 fans, how would their fans have behaved then?

Obviously the ticket snatchers and people pissing on kids are scum and need to be rooted out, but I'm willing to bet those were just isolated incidents and you can count those number of people on two hands.

I believe that the vast majority of our fans, including most of those that bunked in, are not malicious, just desperate to see their team play. Perhaps more of them need to accept that if they haven't got tickets they should not be getting in at the game, but that's what turnstyles and security is for. That's why at every football ground there needs to a system whereby fans are admitted one at time and not not en masse through big gaping holes there were at the OAKA stadium. And you need to ask yourself why there were these problems in Athen yet the same number of fans (40,000?) travelled to Istanbul yet there was no trouble like this there. UEFA need to look at themselves. If they are going to pick a smaller stadium to host a final, reduce the capacity by 8,000 just so they can put in bigger advertising hoardings, then give a club like Liverpol with its support 17,000 tickets knowing that 40,000 fans will travel, the least they can do is pick a stadium with turnstyles to prevent the ticketless fans from getting in.

As for our fans charging the stadium, that's something we need to have a look at. I cant believe, given Hillsborough, that so many fans were willing to endanger their own to get in. We should know better than that.

Errr...no, he's explaining that the difference in circumstances for Milan fans meant they were never likely have the sort of problems that arose on our side, regardless of whether their fans were vile, pleasant or otherwise. You don't half sensationalise things the way you put it, piss on kids and charge the stadium? ****ing hell.

[le2red]

Fans charging the gates, stealing tickets etc is wrong full stop. As a club we need to try and sort this out just as much as UEFA need to take responsibility for organising their events in a professional manner.

However for Samuels to use going to the cinema as an analogy is just plain wrong. If there were say 500 people trying to bunk in at Athens this is out of 63,000 in the ground. If you had 200 people attend the cinema the same percentage would mean 1-2 people trying to bunk in. Hardly the same is it?

[Shaggy]

Fans charging the gates, stealing tickets etc is wrong full stop. As a club we need to try and sort this out just as much as UEFA need to take responsibility for organising their events in a professional manner.

However for Samuels to use going to the cinema as an analogy is just plain wrong. If there were say 500 people trying to bunk in at Athens this is out of 63,000 in the ground. If you had 200 people attend the cinema the same percentage would mean 1-2 people trying to bunk in. Hardly the same is it?

Yep, and I've bunked into a cinema before. Good laugh it was...more fun than the film, anyway.

[choicer]

I think that the one thing people are forgetting is that if the charge on the gates was prearranged as we are lead to believe (and red's heard before the game) then obviously it could be done. I have been to Anfield and I honestly dont think you could charge the gates!

The turnstiles stop you. The police around stop you. If you charge a cinema the CCTV would recognise you, the cops would be called and you would be done at some stage.

The ground was so poorly chosen and so bad that it could be charged and it was! (Note I wasnt there but I have seen people charge certain grounds in Ireland because they can. Others not a hope in hell so they dont)

I also heard UEFA saying that there was none of this last season in Paris but I read somewhere that some Barca and Arse fans got in with no tickets.

Overall proper checks to get in, peoper facilities for fans and grounds that can cope are needed. If that means only 6 stadiums are used for the next 20 years until other countries get their arse in gear then so be it. When the Olympics are being chosen standards must be met and the committe have until a certain time to adhere. If not, it goes to a place that is ready. The CL Final is all about money and not about the game or fans and until that attitude changes I fear we will be fighting a losing battle and, somewhere, another Heysel will happen and we (football and not just English club fans) will be back 20 odd years.

[Revo]

the ass backwards proccess and the length of time to enter the stadium 60 minutes before kick off was as much to do with a gate storming as anything else. what do you think, people with tickets just stood and watched and said, "go on lad,im alright, ive got a ticket"? me arse. many fans went thru those gates with tickets.