Question 2

[Subby]

who's the 4 plebs that said no???? :whatever:

[Shaggy]

Not as clear cut as yes or no. Clearly Rafa doesn't have to win the league this season to keep his job. If we finished 5th though, barring some extenuating circumstance, I think serious question marks would hang over him. I'm not sure it's easy to say exactly where I'd draw the line, it depends more on performance and signs of progress/decline than it is about the finishing positions or points tallies within those two limits.

[Johnny]

The question is based on the notion that we have the right players. If we do, but dont win the title, does that therefore mean we dont have the right manager? No,it`ll mean we need another few pieces of the jigsaw to complete a title winning team.

My thinking is that Rafa's ideas and theories (main ones being rotation, cautious mentality & seeing not losing as a bigger priority than winning) arent ones with which you can win the Premier League. If he doesnt change his thinking, he wont win us the title. You might be in the minority there.

If his methods arent title-winning methods, and bearing in mind the purpose of his job is primarily to win the league, i wonder what the point is of him being in charge? He`s had to settle for his 2nd choice targets which limited his chances of assembling a title winning team.

It's like employing someone to achieve something and then coming to the conclusion that his methods wont achieve the objective. So what do you do? Leave him be and watch the failure continue? Failure?????

For the record, i'm not saying i DO want Rafa sacked. But i am asking if there's any real point in having someone who's methods (IMO) stand in the way of winning the league. LFC`S financial limitations are as much to blame.

[knockers]

My thinking is that Rafa's ideas and theories (main ones being rotation, cautious mentality & seeing not losing as a bigger priority than winning) arent ones with which you can win the Premier League. If he doesnt change his thinking, he wont win us the title.

:whatever: He's a proven title winner with Valencia. You're insite into winning league title probably comes from FM.

If his methods arent title-winning methods, and bearing in mind the purpose of his job is primarily to win the league, i wonder what the point is of him being in charge?

Sacking someone of his standing in the game would be stupid.
We might not win the league this year but I believe we will under Rafa. The club should support him and build a legacy to bring us into the new stadium.

It's like employing someone to achieve something and then coming to the conclusion that his methods wont achieve the objective. So what do you do? Leave him be and watch the failure continue? :whatever::whatever::whatever:

[Icon]

Oh I dunno!...........

[Revo]

In the other poll, just under 60% (at last count) said we DO have the squad/players to win the league...

So question 2 is primarily to those people...

yes rafa is the right man for the job though he is not above criticism

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

It doesn’t look good so far does it?

He still hasn't figured out the right formula to win this league. That's just my opinion of course but to me – and this is just an impression I get - there's light years in difference between ourselves and the mancs in attacking intent, and even the burning desire “us against them attitude” of Chelsea under Mourinho. I don't know, but I just get the feeling that we just don't have either of those things to the extent they have. Maybe it's deeper rooted in the club psyche, 18 years and all that.

Tactically I do still think Rafa is too negative in general. He seems to worry too much about what other teams are doing instead of saying; "right, these are ****e, play well, pass and move, high tempo, get stuck in, beat them". We very rarely seem to play free flowing football, and I don't for one minute believe Rafa wouldn't want to, his Valencia sides were very easy on the eye when they could be. So why is it different with us? Why do we get one dimensional, limited players like Pennant, Kuyt and Riise? None of them Liverpool standard.

That comes down to the manager. He picks the team and gives out the tactical instructions. At times we do play some good stuff, of course we do, we have some good players, but other times we look clueless, agricultural and devoid of attacking ingenuity.

This season he has to at least to mount a strong challenge for the league, no more excuses, he's had time and money, as he should considering he inherited a train wreck, but this is his team now.

If he doesn’t win the league within the next 3 years it’ll be time to move onto the next one.

[reddragon]

The question is based on the notion that we have the right players. If we do, but dont win the title, does that therefore mean we dont have the right manager?It's far too simplistic to suggest that if we have the right players to win the league then we MUST win it. All kinds of other factors can have an effect on the final standings - other teams could have absolutely storming seasons with bags of luck, players playing above themselves,no injuries etc. [see the Mancs last season], we could have some luck in the Cups and CL [unlikely i know!] and have a huge fixture pile up after Xmas [rotation now would come in handy then], influential players could have injuries, etc. I could go on - suffice it to say that i think we have the players to challenge - not definitely win it!

My thinking is that Rafa's ideas and theories (main ones being rotation, cautious mentality & seeing not losing as a bigger priority than winning) arent ones with which you can win the Premier League. If he doesnt change his thinking, he wont win us the title.It seems like we have this chestnut every season now - well at least at the start of the season! It's always disapointing when we go through a bad patch but it isn't always the fault of rotation. Players who haven't been rotated much - like Stevie for instance - are falling well short of their level.

If Big IF thathis methods arent title-winning methods, and bearing in mind the purpose of his job is primarily to win the league, i wonder what the point is of him being in charge?

It's like employing someone to achieve something and then coming to the conclusion that his methods wont achieve the objective. So what do you do? Leave him be and watch the failure continue? Fortunately you aren't the one making this kind of decision. The Liverpool Way [and the correct way] is one of long term vision. Rafa is only now getting the kind of players in place to challenge from a position of strength - I think most rational Liverpool fans are going to give him a bit more of a chance than you

For the record, i'm not saying i DO want Rafa sacked.What ARE you saying then? You say your opinion is that he won't win us the league with his methods, you suggest there's no point in leaving an employee failing in the set objectives, am I being obtuse to suggest you either a. DO want Rafa sacked or b. are a WUM But i am asking if there's any real point in having someone who's methods (IMO) stand in the way of winning the league.

[desertscouser]

It doesn’t look good so far does it?

He still hasn't figured out the right formula to win this league. That's just my opinion of course but to me – and this is just an impression I get - there's light years in difference between ourselves and the mancs in attacking intent, and even the burning desire “us against them attitude” of Chelsea under Mourinho. I don't know, but I just get the feeling that we just don't have either of those things to the extent they have. Maybe it's deeper rooted in the club psyche, 18 years and all that.

Tactically I do still think Rafa is too negative in general. He seems to worry too much about what other teams are doing instead of saying; "right, these are ****e, play well, pass and move, high tempo, get stuck in, beat them". We very rarely seem to play free flowing football, and I don't for one minute believe Rafa wouldn't want to, his Valencia sides were very easy on the eye when they could be. So why is it different with us? Why do we get one dimensional, limited players like Pennant, Kuyt and Riise? None of them Liverpool standard.

That comes down to the manager. He picks the team and gives out the tactical instructions. At times we do play some good stuff, of course we do, we have some good players, but other times we look clueless, agricultural and devoid of attacking ingenuity.

This season he has to at least to mount a strong challenge for the league, no more excuses, he's had time and money, as he should considering he inherited a train wreck, but this is his team now.

If he doesn’t win the league within the next 3 years it’ll be time to move onto the next one.

Spot on as always Niall.

For me, if we don't mount a serious title challenge this season then questions have to be asked and rightly so. This is Rafa's 4th year in charge and he's spent a fair bit of cash bringing in his very own players. It's time to deliver in the premiership.

Rafa has proven that he is as good as any manager in the Champion's League, if not the very best but that doesn't necessarily mean he can replicate that sort of success in the Premiership where we've been poor with respect to mounting a title challenge.

The last few games (apart from our win against Reading's reserves) have been embarrassing. The Marseille performance and our second half against Spurs were very worrying...it was as bad as I've seen us play for years which is a great concern. Let's hope we can turn it around because at the moment we look a side void of any sort of cohesion or inspiration.

[Craig_H]

I think that we should remember that in the second half of last season, we had one of the strongest teams in the league. I know it counted for **** all because of our ****ty start to the season.

Rafa's tactics this season seem to be no different than last season, so I really do think that if we are close to the top teams come the new year, and assuming that the second part of the season goes as per last year, we'll be well off.

Why do you think the same wont happen again? Eg, come the end of the season, we're so far back that it wont matter how fit the players are.

Remember one thing mate, last season, we had Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Everton and Bolton (before they were ****e) away, in our first six away games.

It's no surprise that we've started better this time, with trips to Sunderland, Wigan, Villa and Pompey to replace those listed above.

[Craig_H]

No,it`ll mean we need another few pieces of the jigsaw to complete a title winning team.

So in actual fact, you're saying we DONT have the players to win the title? 60% of people on here disagree...

You might be in the minority there.

Perhaps. Doesnt make me wrong though, sadly.

He`s had to settle for his 2nd choice targets which limited his chances of assembling a title winning team.

Not anymore though. So that excuse is now null and void, right?

Failure?????

To win the league, yes.

LFC`S financial limitations are as much to blame.

The same limitations that have seen us spend not much less than Man Utd have spent in the Premier League era?

[Craig_H]

He's a proven title winner with Valencia. You're insite into winning league title probably comes from FM.

And Graeme Souness was a proven title winner with Rangers...

My 'insight' merely tells me that in order to get into a winning rhythm, most sides need consistency and stability. And players need an incentive to play well and know there's a negative consequence to playing poorly.

But sure, post a few more :whatever: smilies...THAT should do it...

Sacking someone of his standing in the game would be stupid.
We might not win the league this year but I believe we will under Rafa. The club should support him and build a legacy to bring us into the new stadium.

We all thought Houllier would win us the title too. With the benefit of hindsight, it was clear that his overly cautious brand of football wasnt going to bring us the league title.

With regards to winning the PREMIER LEAGUE, Rafa's time hasnt provided much to suggest we will do that.

failure continue?

Failure to win the title - which is effectively what Rafa is being paid to do.

[Craig_H]

yes rafa is the right man for the job though he is not above criticism

Revo mate, do you feel his philosophies and methods are ones which can win the league title?

If not...(big if, i know) and if he still insists on sticking to them, then surely he isnt the man?

[Craig_H]

.What ARE you saying then?

Cant be arsed with the rest of what you've posted, because it's going round in circles. But what i'm doing (as i said) is asking the question.

What signs have their been during Rafa's reign, that he understands what's needed to win the title, and knows how to go about achieving it?

[Craig_H]

Another thing i noticed was Rafa mentioning that we need to get our confidence back and quickly, because we currently 'have none'....

Two issues with this. Firstly, i'm not sure coming out and publicly saying we have 'none' is advisable. Secondly, one has to ask, where did the confidence disappear to and why? Until the last 3 or 4 games, our start had been excellent and that of all things should've seen the confidence levels sky high. Why did they sink so easily? Pako?

Rafa's ability to motivate players and instill a confident, winning mentality is questionable IMO.