Stan The Man

[Skillz]

see, this is exactly what i mean. cause he didn't play a system that some wanted him to, he's stubborn. stubborn cause he doesn't give in to the so called pundits who are stubborn themselves in their unwillingness to accept that the game's not the same since the last had their boots on and that there are other methods and systems than the ones they know?
he's lucky because we won in spite of the ridiculous substitution? wtf? gerrard is not the be all end all of this club anymore whether you like it or not. he was off, we looked more assured and more in control, end of story.

[Jazzmaster]

The media are obsessed with rafa and the comments surrounding the subbing of SG prove that the media's obsessions are clouding people's judgement. I mean Lucas effectively won us the derby!!! How can people not see this - he controlled the midfield much better when he came on and we should have been well ahead even before the penatly incident. Rafa got it right and fair dues to the man. Fcuk the media and their bull**** obsessions with rotation, we won the derby and im fupping delighted.

Its interesting to note that Ferguson benched ronaldo at the weekend but nobody makes an issue out of that...............

[CMK]

Gerrard was subbed out and Liverpool won 2-1 in the end. You got to respect Benitez for his brave decision. Somemore we got a UEFA Champions League match to play in the midweek and the Arsenal game to play the coming weekend. Subbing Gerrard out is a good call IMO.

[dww]

Rafa IS stubborn, i dont really see why you're trying to argue that point. Whether it's a good or bad thing is another issue, but he clearly IS stubborn.

What next? "Water is dry" says fred plasticine...

Using the phrase stubborn implies a criticism though. If you think he is doing the right thing you would say sticking to his guns/principles. I'm pretty convinced that part of the idea of stubbornness is born of the media analysis anyway. For example does he rotate more numerically than other top managers - answer no. So in continuing to do what is seen as 'best practice' is that stubbornness or merely common sense?

The fact that he refuses to believe that his footballing principles which have seen him win two Spanish titles, the CL & the UEFA cup are less good than those of media pundits or internet posters who have done none of the above seems quite reasonable also.

His ideas might be good or bad but the implication that he merely sticks to them out of some quasi-religious faith in them would seem to be rather emphatically answered by his results as a manager. Whether his principles are the right ones to win the PL is a different question but I think he would be far worse at his job if he altered his methods purely due to criticism which has very little logic to it (even if there is an good underlying argument to be put across).

[dww]

Also it seems pretty clear to me that Rafa is willing to change his ideas if players improve/change. Gerrard improved his tactical discipline at the expense of his explosive attacking play from the wing. So Rafa relented and moved him into the middle.

His form in the middle goes and he is moved back to what Rafa feel sis his most natural position. I don't think these actions are those of an unreasonably stubborn man.

[Shaggy]

Using the phrase stubborn implies a criticism though. If you think he is doing the right thing you would say sticking to his guns/principles. I'm pretty convinced that part of the idea of stubbornness is born of the media analysis anyway. For example does he rotate more numerically than other top managers - answer no. So in continuing to do what is seen as 'best practice' is that stubbornness or merely common sense?

The fact that he refuses to believe that his footballing principles which have seen him win two Spanish titles, the CL & the UEFA cup are less good than those of media pundits or internet posters who have done none of the above seems quite reasonable also.

His ideas might be good or bad but the implication that he merely sticks to them out of some quasi-religious faith in them would seem to be rather emphatically answered by his results as a manager. Whether his principles are the right ones to win the PL is a different question but I think he would be far worse at his job if he altered his methods purely due to criticism which has very little logic to it (even if there is an good underlying argument to be put across).

Also it seems pretty clear to me that Rafa is willing to change his ideas if players improve/change. Gerrard improved his tactical discipline at the expense of his explosive attacking play from the wing. So Rafa relented and moved him into the middle.

His form in the middle goes and he is moved back to what Rafa feel sis his most natural position. I don't think these actions are those of an unreasonably stubborn man.

[The Preacher]

I am a big fan of gerrard as i believe that there is no other midfield player in the world with his attributes of pace, power, strength allied to clever incisive passing and deftness when necessary.

But he has to realise that this is no longer the steven gerrard show. This is about Liverpool FC and what's best for the club. If Gerrard was running around like a headless chicken then Benitez was right to take him off.

However, I was astounded by the decision to take him off. In the end we won so its a non starter but if we had lost this game...

[Craig_H]

look, they only say he's stubborn because he doesn't do what they want him to do. is not that difficult to see, is it?

What do they WANT him to do?? What interest do they have in his decision making? They just want news.

He's stubborn and that much is obvious. You're getting your knickers in a twist because you're assuming that i'm having a go at him for being stubborn. Bit silly really.

[Craig_H]

You have lost faith in Rafa that much is obvious. You're almost right in that noone was thinking take off Gerrard, Rafa was.

And his replacement played very, very well and in my world scored the winner. You are still sniping at Rafa after he makes an inspired substitution to win an away derby. Any draw or god forbid we lose another game and no doubt you will step it up again.

One question: What does Rafa have to do to win back your belief?

How am i 'sniping' at Rafa? Try reading my posts. I think i said just yesterday, it doesnt matter what everyone else thought and what we all expected, we won the game and he has to get the benefit of the doubt for that. I also remember saying, if he wins games, i couldnt care less what methods he uses.

So no, i havent 'lost faith' in Rafa, that's a bit melodramatic.

[fred_plasticine]

What do they WANT him to do?? What interest do they have in his decision making? They just want news.

He's stubborn and that much is obvious. You're getting your knickers in a twist because you're assuming that i'm having a go at him for being stubborn. Bit silly really.

i don't assume you're having a go at him.
read dww's post please - he might have brought the point across much better than me.

[Craig_H]

Using the phrase stubborn implies a criticism though.

Does it? Only if you want to read it that way.

If you think he is doing the right thing you would say sticking to his guns/principles.

Would i indeed? I'd say he's being stubborn/sticking to his guns/principles....they all mean the same thing.

I'm pretty convinced that part of the idea of stubbornness is born of the media analysis anyway. For example does he rotate more numerically than other top managers - answer no. So in continuing to do what is seen as 'best practice' is that stubbornness or merely common sense?

It's not about the numerical side of the rotation, nor the rotation itself.

You, like a good few people, cannot seem to grasp this point.

The fact that he refuses to believe that his footballing principles which have seen him win two Spanish titles, the CL & the UEFA cup are less good than those of media pundits or internet posters who have done none of the above seems quite reasonable also.

He hasnt won the Premiership, so La Liga, the CL and the UEFA Cup, in the context of a discussion about winning the league, mean very little.

His ideas might be good or bad but the implication that he merely sticks to them out of some quasi-religious faith in them would seem to be rather emphatically answered by his results as a manager. Whether his principles are the right ones to win the PL is a different question but I think he would be far worse at his job if he altered his methods purely due to criticism which has very little logic to it (even if there is an good underlying argument to be put across).

He makes some extremely odd decisions, which the VAST majority consider to be very strange.

We can talk as fans, the media can talk from their point of view and none of us have managed. But the fact that other top managers dont do it like he does has some bearing too. After all, Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger HAVE managed. And they've won the Premier League.

[dww]

Does it? Only if you want to read it that way.



Would i indeed? I'd say he's being stubborn/sticking to his guns/principles....they all mean the same thing.

The think is that is the nature of language - these phrases are not synonymous as the implication is different. Your failure to grasp linguistic subtleties is besides the point.

It's not about the numerical side of the rotation, nor the rotation itself.

You, like a good few people, cannot seem to grasp this point.

No I don't. I simply answered in the context of the argument. He is criticised for his constant rotation - which is an invalid criticism - in the article by Collymore and more often than not in the media. Continuing to rotate is not being stubborn because as you acknowledge (again implicitly) everyone does it.

Thus the correct criticism is continual poor choices of teams. Which are a series of different decisions and you have to justify with examples why you feel this exhibits stubbornness - otherwise all you are saying in all you posts is Rafa is stubborn by definition therefore contradictory argument is wrong, which is somewhat less than a helpful way to conduct a discussion.

He hasnt won the Premiership, so La Liga, the CL and the UEFA Cup, in the context of a discussion about winning the league, mean very little.




He makes some extremely odd decisions, which the VAST majority consider to be very strange.

We can talk as fans, the media can talk from their point of view and none of us have managed. But the fact that other top managers dont do it like he does has some bearing too. After all, Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger HAVE managed. And they've won the Premier League.

See above: consistent odd decision making is not the same as stubbornness.

The point raised was that Rafa was more stubborn than those managers you list and that it negatively affected our performance. I would argue that all have shown stubborn faith in players and Wenger in particular ahas refused to deviate from a rigid 4-4-2 formation with tactics based on short passing and fast counter attacks in an equally stubborn way to which Rafa has stuck to his philosophies.

[carheex]

I am a big fan of gerrard as i believe that there is no other midfield player in the world with his attributes of pace, power, strength allied to clever incisive passing and deftness when necessary.

But he has to realise that this is no longer the steven gerrard show. This is about Liverpool FC and what's best for the club. If Gerrard was running around like a headless chicken then Benitez was right to take him off.

However, I was astounded by the decision to take him off. In the end we won so its a non starter but if we had lost this game...

2 things:

1) Gerrard was not running around like a headless chicken
2) Gerrard does not think Liverpool is a "steven gerarrd show"

[lfc1394]

I think the problem is the media started hyping us up as potential title winners, in their eyes Rafa has ****ed it all up with his rotating and strange decisions. So hence the constant sniping at Rafa, every decision he makes will be questioned unless he wins us the league.

Some of the decisions he makes are buzzing, like the derby, it was clear after 20mins that the formation wasn’t working as the bitters had worked it out. Change it! Nope Lescott continued to rip us apart on the left.

As to the substitution of Gerrard, the whole thing was glossed over with the fact that the ref played a blinder. By all accounts we should have drawn that game and I’m sure the mood would have been less than forgiving on here. Granted I thought Lucas was fantastic when he came on, but he should have come on for someone else. I love Rafa, just as I loved GH before him. But IMHO he has lost the plot this season.

[PTP]

I sort of agree with djs on the issue of rafa being stubborn - IMO he is stubborn, or certainly comes across that way regardless of how the media portray him. The one thing that stands out/makes me think this is in some games he can leave it too late to make changes or subs to the side, or sometimes (imo) he seems to make strange subs that you can't make out why. This has nothing to do with the Gerrard subsitution on Saturday, but for me i have been to many games when we look like we need a change or a sub, so much so that half the kop will be chanting someones name on who they think we should bring on cause it's a dull 0-0 at home or we are losing and Rafa doesn't seem to change it. Now i am not having a go at Rafa, he is obv more qualified than anyone on here or in the Kop on what changes he should/shouldn't make - but he seems to be convinced that whatever team he has picked is the right one and he keeps faith in that team even if every one else in the ground thinks he has got it wrong and needs to change it. Some people might say that is a good thing cause Rafa is the manager and once he has made his mind up he sticks to it, and some people will that is stubborn.

Apologies if that doesn't make it sense - i started writing about half an hour ago but my phone hasn't stopped in work so I kept on getting distracted