Stan The Man

[Redlife]

Using the phrase stubborn implies a criticism though. If you think he is doing the right thing you would say sticking to his guns/principles. I'm pretty convinced that part of the idea of stubbornness is born of the media analysis anyway. For example does he rotate more numerically than other top managers - answer no. So in continuing to do what is seen as 'best practice' is that stubbornness or merely common sense?

The fact that he refuses to believe that his footballing principles which have seen him win two Spanish titles, the CL & the UEFA cup are less good than those of media pundits or internet posters who have done none of the above seems quite reasonable also.

His ideas might be good or bad but the implication that he merely sticks to them out of some quasi-religious faith in them would seem to be rather emphatically answered by his results as a manager. Whether his principles are the right ones to win the PL is a different question but I think he would be far worse at his job if he altered his methods purely due to criticism which has very little logic to it (even if there is an good underlying argument to be put across).

[Joe King]

The fact is Rafa believes in his squad and in his own judgement. What I don't like about the media is, is that in hindsight whatever Rafa has gone wrong with, they pick at it and keep on picking at it whenever he loses again. Its like these 'experts' who write columns in the paper and 'experts' on the telly have memories like elephants. At times, they need to give it a rest and look at the other managers who at times do make mistakes. Rafa is still a very young manager in the Premiership compared to his rivals. He is going to make mistakes in the market, in his tactics and his team selection but more times than not, he gets his tactics absolutely spot on however it is the players on the pitch who let him down at times. Lack of finishing, lack of creativity. The base is there with the defence, the rest of them just need to know how to manufacture some spark within the side. The classic example being the Champions League final in Athens- Rafa tactically outwitted Ancelotti however the players on the pitch simply couldn't do the business.

The media often talk about stubbornness being a bad thing with Rafa. Its about time these buffoons who think they are experts look at Slur Alex's style and philosophy of football. The same could be said about Wenger's style of football and his philosophy of the game. In recent times, Wenger has had much less success than Liverpool yet it is Liverpool who are scrutinised for lack of ambition.

[KK07]

I think we won in spite of Rafa, as opposed to because of him, on this occasion.

Spot on.

Nobody was thinking "I know, we shoud take off Gerrard, that should do the trick" and the fact that Lucas was involved in the winning goal was quite concidental.

And again.

[KK07]

Another pundit who thinks he is qualified to pass judgment on, and thinks he knows better than, a Champions League winning manager

Good post.

So fans aren't allowed opinons now?

May as well shut Est down so!!!

[KK07]

You call it expressing an opinion, I call it a half-wit passing judgement on his intellectual superior.

Kop on FFS will you,Rafa is not infallable,he ****s up,in fact he ****ed up in CL final that we happened to win.

He ****ed up in the last CL final we played in too and countless other times TBH.

I'm not having a go at Rafa but he does **** up and often!

[Dhav]

So fans aren't allowed opinons now?

May as well shut Est down so!!!

Kop on FFS will you,Rafa is not infallable,he ****s up,in fact he ****ed up in CL final that we happened to win.

He ****ed up in the last CL final we played in too and countless other times TBH.

I'm not having a go at Rafa but he does **** up and often!

You know full well that I have not said people are not entitled to opinions and you also know that nowhere have I said that Rafa is infallible. I can accept that Rafa has made mistakes and Athens being the prime example. I can also accept he should live by those decisions and be criticised for them. No one is saying let's blindly follow Rafa and accept everything he does without questioning it.

But if you watched Roy Evans last night on LFC TV last night (who was a manager unlike people like Gray, Collymore or anyone on here) he hit the nail right on the head IMO when he said the manager's job is to make the decisions before and during the event - unlike pundits and fans who have the easy job of forming their opinions after the event. We could all see as the game was unfolding that Rafa got the team selection and tactics wrong in Athens - but it is the easiest thing in the world to be wise in hindsight, it's a lot harder to make the right decisions before the event.

The so-called "opinions" of Gray and Collymore the last few days (which are not opinions but are actually judgments) are downright disrespectful to someone who has a track record in management that deserves a lot more respect than they've been giving him.

[KK07]

But thats the thing,they're giving their opinions on the decisons that Rafa has made.

Yes they're judging him,but he's put himself in a position to be judged.
He's the manager of one of the biggest football clubs in the world,he's paid a massive amount of money,of course he should be judged.

Maybe in a perfect world those judgements would come at the end of the season but the world isn't pefect and neither is Rafa.

What he's been judged on now is two and a bit seasons of making the same baffling team selections and subtitutions!

Pundits and sports writers have seen him do these things since he's been in charge and the see his mistakes as the reason that we have not yet won the league under Rafa,scrap that,they see it as the reason we have not even come close to winning the league under Rafa.

I realise this looks like an attack on Rafa but it's not,I like him,I think he's capable of delivering great things for our club but if he'll ever deliver the premiership title,I have my doubts.

[KK07]

Just to further my point,I've read this on another thread and am gob-smacked!

Rafa from the Echo:

“Sissoko was doing a fantastic job. If he didn’t give the ball away sometimes he would be the best player in every game because he runs more than anyone, he regains more balls than anyone and he covers all his team-mates.

“He needs to improve in front of goal, but I am really pleased with him."

Is this some kind of wind up?

Can you honestly say that Rafa is spot on with his comments about Momo?
I'm beginning to think the Momo Sissoko is the worst footballer I've ever seen,he can tackle that's for certain but sweet lamb of Jesus the fella couldn't pass ****ing wind!

To take SG off on Sat and leave MS on was baffling an it's that type decision that I'm talking about.

Rafa was blessed on Sat. he got lucky,we got a pen we deserved and they didn't,we had 11 vs 10 for a long time and he insisted on playing 1 up front and then took off our most influential midfielder and left that joker Sissoko on the pictch FFS!!!

[Dhav]

But thats the thing,they're giving their opinions on the decisons that Rafa has made.

Yes they're judging him,but he's put himself in a position to be judged.
He's the manager of one of the biggest football clubs in the world,he's paid a massive amount of money,of course he should be judged.

Maybe in a perfect world those judgements would come at the end of the season but the world isn't pefect and neither is Rafa.

What he's been judged on now is two and a bit seasons of making the same baffling team selections and subtitutions!

Pundits and sports writers have seen him do these things since he's been in charge and the see his mistakes as the reason that we have not yet won the league under Rafa,scrap that,they see it as the reason we have not even come close to winning the league under Rafa.

I realise this looks like an attack on Rafa but it's not,I like him,I think he's capable of delivering great things for our club but if he'll ever deliver the premiership title,I have my doubts.

What you say there is more than reasonable and it doesn't come across as an attack on Rafa to me at all

It's just this type of tabloid journalism that pisses me off. When it's scum bags in the rag or the Mirror or whatever you can expect it as you know they're trying to sell papers. But when it's former footballers like Collymore, Redknapp and Gray (who just comes across as bitter) it's disappointing as they're pros who should be objective and have no axe to grind. But they instead just come out with the same hyperbole and same agenda perpetuated by the tablopid press. I mean Collymore's piece almost seems to be trying to give credence to the Rafa/Gerrard rift rumours.

[Dhav]

Just to further my point,I've read this on another thread and am gob-smacked!

Rafa from the Echo:

“Sissoko was doing a fantastic job. If he didn’t give the ball away sometimes he would be the best player in every game because he runs more than anyone, he regains more balls than anyone and he covers all his team-mates.

“He needs to improve in front of goal, but I am really pleased with him."

Is this some kind of wind up?

Can you honestly say that Rafa is spot on with his comments about Momo?
I'm beginning to think the Momo Sissoko is the worst footballer I've ever seen,he can tackle that's for certain but sweet lamb of Jesus the fella couldn't pass ****ing wind!

To take SG off on Sat and leave MS on was baffling an it's that type decision that I'm talking about.

Rafa was blessed on Sat. he got lucky,we got a pen we deserved and they didn't,we had 11 vs 10 for a long time and he insisted on playing 1 up front and then took off our most influential midfielder and left that joker Sissoko on the pictch FFS!!!

Personally I don't think we were lucky at all - I think we fully deserved to win and it is only our wasteful finishing as usual that we had to rely on a last min penalty to win the game. Everton had only one shot on goal the whole game. We on the other hand had several opportunities to to put them to bed in the second half but people like Voronin, Kuyt and Riise all missed chances that really should have been put away. I don't think it was a rescue job, lucky or we got out of jail, or anything like that or those types of comments we have heard since Sat.

As for Rafa's comments re Momo, I dont think you can take them at face value, I'm sure there's some kind of agenda behind them. Rafa acknowledge as much a couple of weeks ago (after Marseille) that Momo was low on confidence and in light of that these type of morale-bo osting comments do not come as a surprise to me. On the other hand, if he was being completely honest about his assessment of Momo and that is indeed his view point then I agree with you in that it is a cause for concern!


As for Gerrard, was he our most influential midfielder on the day or do you mean he is our most influential midfielder in general? Because to me Gerrard seems to be getting picked more on reputation than performances at the mo.

[Pacman]

Who gives a **** we won the game didn't we?

Lucas won the penalty to win us the game didn't he?

[fred_plasticine]

But thats the thing,they're giving their opinions on the decisons that Rafa has made.

Yes they're judging him,but he's put himself in a position to be judged.
He's the manager of one of the biggest football clubs in the world,he's paid a massive amount of money,of course he should be judged.

Maybe in a perfect world those judgements would come at the end of the season but the world isn't pefect and neither is Rafa.

What he's been judged on now is two and a bit seasons of making the same baffling team selections and subtitutions!

Pundits and sports writers have seen him do these things since he's been in charge and the see his mistakes as the reason that we have not yet won the league under Rafa,scrap that,they see it as the reason we have not even come close to winning the league under Rafa.

I realise this looks like an attack on Rafa but it's not,I like him,I think he's capable of delivering great things for our club but if he'll ever deliver the premiership title,I have my doubts.

this is a statement i cannot understand.
while people fully acknoledge that rafa's methods and general approach have been good enough to pip both the spanish giants twice to the title, as well as to win both europe's biggest prizes, they beleive he doesn't have what it takes to win the epl. it really does my head in when people say "negative tactics don't win you the league in england" which makes you wanna beleive spurs or arsenal won the league two seasons ago instead of negative-to-the-bone-chelsea. for whatever reason rafa has never been given a chance by some sections of the media even though his legacy has been a team of average players at best with hardly any money to spend but everybody fully expected him to deliver in no time.

[Guest]

I dont disagree.

But the stubborness has to be there for the right reasons...if that makes sense.

But it seems to have made sense as Lucas should have scored and we won.

Stevie was trying to do it all by himself and he was taking risks and losing the ball. Rafa subbed him just as he aimed a left footed shot in the stands instead of trying to pass it around and create an opening. The second penalty came after a passing move in which Lucas was instrumental and we played in and around the Everton penalty box.

Call him lucky, I won't. It was a risk worth taking based on the result alone.

[KK07]

What you say there is more than reasonable and it doesn't come across as an attack on Rafa to me at all

It's just this type of tabloid journalism that pisses me off. When it's scum bags in the rag or the Mirror or whatever you can expect it as you know they're trying to sell papers. But when it's former footballers like Collymore, Redknapp and Gray (who just comes across as bitter) it's disappointing as they're pros who should be objective and have no axe to grind. But they instead just come out with the same hyperbole and same agenda perpetuated by the tablopid press. I mean Collymore's piece almost seems to be trying to give credence to the Rafa/Gerrard rift rumours.

I agree that alot of the tripe written about us is unfair,however we can't dismiss every comment as bittter,even if it comes from Andt Gray.

Redknapp has been alot more pro Liverpool in recent weeks then when he first started on Sky.

As for Gerrard, was he our most influential midfielder on the day or do you mean he is our most influential midfielder in general? Because to me Gerrard seems to be getting picked more on reputation than performances at the mo.

I'm not saying that Gerrard was the best player on the park,just that he offers more in an attacking sense then Momo.

And he may have scored the chance that Momo spurned,at least he would have "won" us another penalty!!

Who gives a **** we won the game didn't we?

Lucas won the penalty to win us the game didn't he?

You're a fat fool.

Look there's some pie over there. Run fat boy run.

this is a statement i cannot understand.
while people fully acknoledge that rafa's methods and general approach have been good enough to pip both the spanish giants twice to the title, as well as to win both europe's biggest prizes, they beleive he doesn't have what it takes to win the epl. it really does my head in when people say "negative tactics don't win you the league in england" which makes you wanna beleive spurs or arsenal won the league two seasons ago instead of negative-to-the-bone-chelsea. for whatever reason rafa has never been given a chance by some sections of the media even though his legacy has been a team of average players at best with hardly any money to spend but everybody fully expected him to deliver in no time.

Try reading it again a few times if you're still having trouble then I suggest possibly doing some night classes.

[Pacman]

I agree that alot of the tripe written about us is unfair,however we can't dismiss every comment as bittter,even if it comes from Andt Gray.

Redknapp has been alot more pro Liverpool in recent weeks then when he first started on Sky.



I'm not saying that Gerrard was the best player on the park,just that he offers more in an attacking sense then Momo.

And he may have scored the chance that Momo spurned,at least he would have "won" us another penalty!!



You're a fat fool.

Look there's some pie over there. Run fat boy run.



Try reading it again a few times if you're still having trouble then I suggest possibly doing some night classes.

I know you're Irish Jay so I will say this very slowly.

WE WON THE ****ING GAME YOU THICK PIKEY.

There you go hopefully you will understand that.