Whats the Point?

[El Jefecito]

Of this place or any other football based forum?

Surely its a place for opinions? different views?

Why can't people question Rafa without being abused?

Its getting very similar to the Houllier years, lines are being drawn and let battle commence. For example I already know whatever happens Tom will defend Rafa until the dying end and CAD will doubt him till its all over.

No one is right and no one is wrong. But for the record I was right on Houllier.

I'm a bit like Alun, in that I read what I see on here in order to form a better view of "whatever".

I'm a little bit more wierd though, in that I start from the position that everyone is rational and that if they've reached a conculsion then there is a logical train of thought that got them there. I try to recreate that journey and add in my own facts etc to see if it adds anything to my view of the world. If it does, great,I'm smarter for it, if not, well then I have a basis for ask a question to educate me.

Now, a lot of people on here assume that because a conclusion is posted in an emotive way, that it is the result of an emotional inference and hence dismiss it out of hand. This is usually the point at which we segue into personal insults etc.

Give 99% of posters on here the credit for having thought as much about their position as you have

BTW The other 1% become obvious fairly quickly and you can hack them on ignore and this will become a much better place.

Now, as to changing thier minds

[AFII]

Rafa makes mistakes but he is still the best manager out there IMO.

You can't expect a manager to get everything right. He will correct the mistakes he makes and sells a player if he isn't good enough.

Rafa has tried very hard to sign a quality winger but they have turned us down or the club has priced us out of any deal.

He knows which positions we need to strengthen and he will sign up quality players when they are available at a fair price.

£25m+ for Alves isn't a fair price, or £25m for Quaresma.

[BobTheCharmer]

Rafa deserves this season before he is judged.

no one should comment until May next year? bloody hell, may as well switch the light off when you leave then.

He's been here long enough for people to have formed a fair assessment of the guy. As a bloke he seems decent enough, but then I thought Rose West was just a little kinky.

I've no doubt international football & I'm including European in that can be quite tactical at times. But for me Rafa trys to over complicate things domestically. Fergie is a **** but there's no doubting he knows what he's doing when it comes to winning leagues. He signs talented attacking players, plays attacking football and works on the basis of creating enough real chances that will result more often than not in goals. Look how many goals were laid on a plate for RVN. Wenger also works on the basis of signing players that can first and foremost control a football. He doesn't moan about lack of money, yet uses what he has to sign players that fit his system. They over play at times yet can pass the ball in tight situations better than any team I've seen in recent times.

We just seem to be linked with endless players to fill a 'roster' of positions that may or may not be available. How many central midfielders can we need? The result? players end up playing out of position, aka the Crow being asked to fill in on the right whereas Pennant can play there & offer more (open to debate but it is at least the position he was signed to play).

Anyway, us stating stuff on here has no effect on Rafa personally so why are people so verment in their defence of the chosen one? Why does it bother people so much? I think if you asked 10,000 Liverpool fans whether they had confidence in Rafa to win the league, opinion would be split down the middle.

[tomasjj]

I guess it bothers people so much because we dream and hope that Rafa is the one, just like you do when you pray each night

The over-complication issue is relevant I feel. Football is different in the PL than in many of the continental leagues where there is more emphasis on the tactical side. Rafa is imo too much of a chess players at times.

It must be hard for players with strong instincts to curb them and act like robots more or less, cause at times, that is what it seems to me that Rafa wants.

[El Jefecito]

no one should comment until May next year? bloody hell, may as well switch the light off when you leave then.

He's been here long enough for people to have formed a fair assessment of the guy. As a bloke he seems decent enough, but then I thought Rose West was just a little kinky.

I've no doubt international football & I'm including European in that can be quite tactical at times. But for me Rafa trys to over complicate things domestically. Fergie is a **** but there's no doubting he knows what he's doing when it comes to winning leagues. He signs talented attacking players, plays attacking football and works on the basis of creating enough real chances that will result more often than not in goals. Look how many goals were laid on a plate for RVN. Wenger also works on the basis of signing players that can first and foremost control a football. He doesn't moan about lack of money, yet uses what he has to sign players that fit his system. They over play at times yet can pass the ball in tight situations better than any team I've seen in recent times.

We just seem to be linked with endless players to fill a 'roster' of positions that may or may not be available. How many central midfielders can we need? The result? players end up playing out of position, aka the Crow being asked to fill in on the right whereas Pennant can play there & offer more (open to debate but it is at least the position he was signed to play).

Anyway, us stating stuff on here has no effect on Rafa personally so why are people so verment in their defence of the chosen one? Why does it bother people so much? I think if you asked 10,000 Liverpool fans whether they had confidence in Rafa to win the league, opinion would be split down the middle.

The time to compare Rafa to Fergie and Wegner is in 10 years time. They have had that much of a head start on him. Fergie has been tweaking his team for 15 years and Wegner for 10. Rafa has had to build from scratch a 24 man squad and then a youth pipleline in the last 4 years. AND he has had to do this on a paupers budget.

Do you really think he would have bought Crouch and Kuyt if he could have brought in Torres 3 years ago? Course not. The guy has been playing with his hands tied behind his back.

With our funding and now having a pretty good squad, we'll be going into tweak mode. But remember, we will always be at a disadvantage to fergies and wegner as they have much more money than us.

[Craig_H]

For me, Liverpool is like my family, and EST is like my living room. If you want to come in and question the way my kids behave, OK, as long as you are being constructive and genuinely seeking my good. But if you just want to vent and slag off my family then I'm not going to listen and I'd rather you went to somebody else's house.

EST isnt just your living room though.

[Frank Leroux]

no one should comment until May next year? bloody hell, may as well switch the light off when you leave then.

He's been here long enough for people to have formed a fair assessment of the guy. As a bloke he seems decent enough, but then I thought Rose West was just a little kinky.

I've no doubt international football & I'm including European in that can be quite tactical at times. But for me Rafa trys to over complicate things domestically. Fergie is a **** but there's no doubting he knows what he's doing when it comes to winning leagues. He signs talented attacking players, plays attacking football and works on the basis of creating enough real chances that will result more often than not in goals. Look how many goals were laid on a plate for RVN. Wenger also works on the basis of signing players that can first and foremost control a football. He doesn't moan about lack of money, yet uses what he has to sign players that fit his system. They over play at times yet can pass the ball in tight situations better than any team I've seen in recent times.

We just seem to be linked with endless players to fill a 'roster' of positions that may or may not be available. How many central midfielders can we need? The result? players end up playing out of position, aka the Crow being asked to fill in on the right whereas Pennant can play there & offer more (open to debate but it is at least the position he was signed to play).

Anyway, us stating stuff on here has no effect on Rafa personally so why are people so verment in their defence of the chosen one? Why does it bother people so much? I think if you asked 10,000 Liverpool fans whether they had confidence in Rafa to win the league, opinion would be split down the middle.

(IMO) excellent post, Bob.

Frank.

[BobTheCharmer]

The time to compare Rafa to Fergie and Wegner is in 10 years time. They have had that much of a head start on him. Fergie has been tweaking his team for 15 years and Wegner for 10. Rafa has had to build from scratch a 24 man squad and then a youth pipleline in the last 4 years. AND he has had to do this on a paupers budget.

Do you really think he would have bought Crouch and Kuyt if he could have brought in Torres 3 years ago? Course not. The guy has been playing with his hands tied behind his back.

With our funding and now having a pretty good squad, we'll be going into tweak mode. But remember, we will always be at a disadvantage to fergies and wegner as they have much more money than us.

Ok I'll give you some of that. But team harmony plays a big part in team success and I think Rafa may have overlooked this aspect of late. I may be wrong on this but there's been a fall out with his long time assistant Pako, all is not/never has been right with Gerrard, Crouch has been treated like ****e and these things impact on others. He likes to use players like chess pieces but they're not. They're human beings. They get passionate, they like to play game aftergame when on a scoring run etc etc.

Oh well we'll see.

[El Jefecito]

Ok I'll give you some of that. But team harmony plays a big part in team success and I think Rafa may have overlooked this aspect of late. I may be wrong on this but there's been a fall out with his long time assistant Pako, all is not/never has been right with Gerrard, Crouch has been treated like ****e and these things impact on others. He likes to use players like chess pieces but they're not. They're human beings. They get passionate, they like to play game aftergame when on a scoring run etc etc.

Oh well we'll see.

I see where you are coming from on the man management side. Rafa though I think sees needing an arm around your shoulder as a weaknees and if you can't live without it, he'll cull you for someone who can.

And YES, I think he is that ruthless. For good or for bad.

[tomasjj]

I see where you are coming from on the man management side. Rafa though I think sees needing an arm around your shoulder as a weaknees and if you can't live without it, he'll cull you for someone who can.

And YES, I think he is that ruthless. For good or for bad.

I'd say that is a bit of a weakness on Rafa's part though.
Ok, it is a group, and people must obey the same rules, but these are individuals who might need a bit of different management skills for their best to be brought out of them.
Some balance in that dept would be nice, and I reckon it is possible.

[El Jefecito]

I'd say that is a bit of a weakness on Rafa's part though.
Ok, it is a group, and people must obey the same rules, but these are individuals who might need a bit of different management skills for their best to be brought out of them.
Some balance in that dept would be nice, and I reckon it is possible.

I agree it is a weakness. But I don't think it's going to change and a squad built under Rafa's terms will necessarily be stronger than if it contained people who constantly need reassurance.

[BobTheCharmer]

I see where you are coming from on the man management side. Rafa though I think sees needing an arm around your shoulder as a weaknees and if you can't live without it, he'll cull you for someone who can.

And YES, I think he is that ruthless. For good or for bad.

yeah I can see him thinking that way.

the foreign players are probably more tuned into his thought process than the home based ones. most british commentators, ex players, home based fans etc are bemused by his methods at times because we're used to one way of thinking which we've grown up on.

[El Jefecito]

yeah I can see him thinking that way.

the foreign players are probably more tuned into his thought process than the home based ones. most british commentators, ex players, home based fans etc are bemused by his methods at times because we're used to one way of thinking which we've grown up on.

If you haven't read a season on the brink you should. If you are an amateur psychologist like me you will be amazed. Rafa is the BIGGEST control freak the world has ever known.

This is not really a good thing, but if you look at the worlds greats, you will find most fall on the wrong side of an extreme.

So even if he is imperfect, even though you know he will hurt fragile people, like SG, you know he's your best hope for success!

[tomasjj]

I agree it is a weakness. But I don't think it's going to change and a squad built under Rafa's terms will necessarily be stronger than if it contained people who constantly need reassurance.

Ok, I can see your point, but I am not sure the team will be stronger, but for another reason I think might be tied in with this topic:

Do you reckon this is somehow tied in with Rafa's, imo, reluctance or lack, should I say, to really appreciate and make use of individual creativity and artistry on the pitch?

[Dhav]

no one should comment until May next year? bloody hell, may as well switch the light off when you leave then.

He's been here long enough for people to have formed a fair assessment of the guy. As a bloke he seems decent enough, but then I thought Rose West was just a little kinky.

I've no doubt international football & I'm including European in that can be quite tactical at times. But for me Rafa trys to over complicate things domestically. Fergie is a **** but there's no doubting he knows what he's doing when it comes to winning leagues. He signs talented attacking players, plays attacking football and works on the basis of creating enough real chances that will result more often than not in goals. Look how many goals were laid on a plate for RVN. Wenger also works on the basis of signing players that can first and foremost control a football. He doesn't moan about lack of money, yet uses what he has to sign players that fit his system. They over play at times yet can pass the ball in tight situations better than any team I've seen in recent times.

We just seem to be linked with endless players to fill a 'roster' of positions that may or may not be available. How many central midfielders can we need? The result? players end up playing out of position, aka the Crow being asked to fill in on the right whereas Pennant can play there & offer more (open to debate but it is at least the position he was signed to play).

Anyway, us stating stuff on here has no effect on Rafa personally so why are people so verment in their defence of the chosen one? Why does it bother people so much? I think if you asked 10,000 Liverpool fans whether they had confidence in Rafa to win the league, opinion would be split down the middle.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean people should not comment or form assessments of him. I meant he should be given this season to prove he is taking the club in the right direction before people start calling for his head.