Whats the Point?

[alunevans]

Out of interest lads, at what point did you finally come to the conclusion that Houllier had to go?

For me, it was the Sunderland away game when they had the hapless Howard Wilkinson in charge and we somehow still managed to lose 2-1. Some of his comments after that games (and I think the Newcastle game a bit later on at Xmas) were ludicrous.

Regarding Rafa, I still think he's going to win us the league at some point but the rest of this season may change that opinion.

I'd say about 18 months before he did. My memory isn't great on time but I was arguing fervently for him to go in the close season before he did and I felt he should have gone before then. So yeah, give or take, I'd say 18 months before he went was around the point where I was clear in my mind that I wanted shut.

[Guest]

I lean more twards DJS's view. I believe a manager has a philosophy which he follows. At the moment I'd find it incredible (as in not-credible) that Benitez will get a better quality squad and alter his methods to how he has thus far worked.

I think it's a fundamental difference in views - we are not challenging for the title because of our current squad/injuries/focus versus the view that we will not challenge because of the managers methods.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

Frank

6 points off the top in October, in 4th place with a game in hand on manure plus a match against Arsenal to come. Does that mean we're fighting for 3rd spot ?

[Guest]

It's impossible for Rafa to implement the same blueprint he used with Valencia (well, he would try), simply because the players are different, and their qualities may differ. Valencia did have a player ala Stevie G in Aimar, but he was used sparingly because he was inconsistent and wasn't probably as tactically aware as other lesser blessed players.

All of that to say that Rafa probably doesn't like our over reliance on Stevie G, therefore has made a case in point on Saturday. Stevie just feels that he can do it all by himself sometimes and for me that's his main weakness. No player can do that. It's all about the team.

By sharing the responsibility around and by involving more players to take it, makes the team much more dangerous and difficult to control. It's a team game in the end.

[AFII]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpFa373jbqg

[Pacman]

I lean more twards DJS's view. I believe a manager has a philosophy which he follows. At the moment I'd find it incredible (as in not-credible) that Benitez will get a better quality squad and alter his methods to how he has thus far worked.

I think it's a fundamental difference in views - we are not challenging for the title because of our current squad/injuries/focus versus the view that we will not challenge because of the managers methods.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

Frank

I think all this is knee jerk tbh.

United started the season like a bag of ham drawing to Reading at home, losing to Man City etc yet all of a sudden they have turned it round and are starting to look like champions again. We've had a few dodgy draws but are still undefeated yet all of a sudden we aren't championship contenders and are fighting for 3rd and 4th.

We need to see how everything pans out before we jump to conclusions A few dodgy performances doesn't make us crap and by the same token if we thump Arsenal on Sunday it doesn't automatically make us title contenders.

[Frank Leroux]

6 points off the top in October, in 4th place with a game in hand on manure plus a match against Arsenal to come. Does that mean we're fighting for 3rd spot ?

But Fredo, I'm saying I don't believe Benitez's methods will get us to the top. I've been proven correct for two seasons. I'll accept there were mitigating circumstances then and now is too early in the season to be writing it off. But you either fundamentally believe (that's believe, not know) that the way he plays the game will win the PL or you don't.

Frank.

[Guest]

But Fredo, I'm saying I don't believe Benitez's methods will get us to the top. I've been proven correct for two seasons. I'll accept there were mitigating circumstances then and now is too early in the season to be writing it off. But you either fundamentally believe (that's believe, not know) that the way he plays the game will win the PL or you don't.

Frank.

He probably doesn't possess all the players he wants, to implement his blueprint ? That's not to say he has flaws because his rotation policy reaped dividends in La Liga and for us in winning and reaching the Champions league final last season.

Every team rotate players and every manager make mistakes over the course of the season. Fergie is currently persisting with Rooney AND Tevez when many pundits are saying they can't play together. Does he care ? No, he doesn't give a flying ****.

If Rafa (or any other manager for that matter) is gonna listen to the press and every supporter, then surely that's not right. He has to believe and stick to his principles and change them if he sees it's not working. At the moment we're not doing too badly.

At the end of the day, it's at the end of the season when we sit back and judge. Not in October.

[Frank Leroux]

I think all this is knee jerk tbh.

United started the season like a bag of ham drawing to Reading at home, losing to Man City etc yet all of a sudden they have turned it round and are starting to look like champions again. We've had a few dodgy draws but are still undefeated yet all of a sudden we aren't championship contenders and are fighting for 3rd and 4th.

We need to see how everything pans out before we jump to conclusions A few dodgy performances doesn't make us crap and by the same token if we thump Arsenal on Sunday it doesn't automatically make us title contenders.

Pacman, Utd have won X number of titles. I'd suggest that the common thread there is Ferguson and the way he feels either the game should be played (and therefore got a lucky coincidence) or he figured this was the way to win it. Looking into the season from two months ago - as I did with PPower - I could only see Utd winning it again because of a proven methodology.

You looking to the start of this season could be described as knee jerk. It's too short term.

Anyone looking at my post rate (from both here and KTalk) should know I try to avoid kneejerk.

Frank

[Dhav]

I think all this is knee jerk tbh.

United started the season like a bag of ham drawing to Reading at home, losing to Man City etc yet all of a sudden they have turned it round and are starting to look like champions again. We've had a few dodgy draws but are still undefeated yet all of a sudden we aren't championship contenders and are fighting for 3rd and 4th.

We need to see how everything pans out before we jump to conclusions A few dodgy performances doesn't make us crap and by the same token if we thump Arsenal on Sunday it doesn't automatically make us title contenders.

This is basically what I've been trying to say, although nowhere near as articulately.

[Frank Leroux]

He probably doesn't possess all the players he wants to implement his blueprint ? That's not to say he has flaws because his rotation policy reaped dividends in La Liga and for us in winning and reaching the Champions league.

Every team rotate players and every manager make mistakes over the course of the season. Fergie is currently persisting with Rooney AND Tevez when many pundits are saying they can't play together. Does he care ? No, he doesn't give a flying ****.

If Rafa (or any other manager for that matter) is gonna listen to the press and every supporter, then surely that's not right. He has to believe and stick to his principles and change them if he sees it's not working. At the moment we're not doing too badly.

At the end of the day, it's at the end of the season when we sit back and judge. Not in October.

Of course, Fredo, I'll be looking a complete (though happy) eejit come May if we're sitting on the top of the league

I'm finding myself - in this thread - becoming more and more defensive of the view I hold about Benitez....which probably means I should leave it there.

I don't want to come across as being some sort of fundamentalist now, do I?

Frank

[Guest]

Of course, Fredo, I'll be looking a complete (though happy) eejit come May if we're sitting on the top of the league

I'm finding myself - in this thread - becoming more and more defensive of the view I hold about Benitez....which probably means I should leave it there.

I don't want to come across as being some sort of fundamentalist now, do I?

Frank

No, you aren't and neither do I. That's not to say we're right with our points either. We both can be wrong.

[Sir Bob]

I was one of the first on KT to fall out of love with GH and took no end of abuse for doing so.
I remember one thread I started which showed all premiership clubs league results over a 38 game period. The league table showed us in about 10th place, level with Southampton. I called for GH to go and received loads of abuse in the thread but also about 40 or so PM's, some offering support but many were fairly abusive. Most disappointingly some said they supported my view but didn't want to support it on the site due to the abuse they would recieve.

Now its not like that here yet but the signs are there. We should be free to question anything as regards to LFC. Rafa, G&H, SG, everything without getting personal abuse back. Although Rafa often baffles me, I still fully support him but when I think he's wrong i'll say so and should be free to exprees this view. Doing so doesn't make me ante Rafa, ante LFC or not a 'proper' fan.

This is an internet forum. As such there will be people who are well informed and people who don't know their footballing ar5e from their footballing elbow. Who fits into which category is upto individual posters but if someone starts a thread which you think is rubbish simply ignore it. Comments such as Momo is ****e don't take a thread anywhere but equally if thats someone's view then he should be free to express it.

In short people should feel free to post views that most will disagree with without getting a shedload of abuse back. Who knows, (like with getting rid of GH), that monority view may one day becomes the majority one.

[Pacman]

Pacman, Utd have won X number of titles. I'd suggest that the common thread there is Ferguson and the way he feels either the game should be played (and therefore got a lucky coincidence) or he figured this was the way to win it. Looking into the season from two months ago - as I did with PPower - I could only see Utd winning it again because of a proven methodology.

You looking to the start of this season could be described as knee jerk. It's too short term.

Anyone looking at my post rate (from both here and KTalk) should know I try to avoid kneejerk.

Frank

I really don't understand what you are saying?

How I read it you are saying that we can put United's poor start down to a blip because Ferguson knows how to win titles and Rafa doesn't? I'm not going to get into a debate on who is the better manager because I think it's fruitless and pointless however to say Rafa doesn't know how to win league titles is absurd IMO you only need to look at what he did in Spain.

We have had a few ropey results as have United and Chelsea but I fully expect the later to be in the hunt come May. I think people are forgetting we won at the weekend against our bitter rivals which is another 3 points gained.

We are currently sitting 4th with a game in hand on most of the top four and if we beat Arsenal on Sunday we will be right back up there. Lets see where we sit in January before writing off our title aspirations.

[Guest]

I was one of the first on KT to fall out of love with GH and took no end of abuse for doing so.
I remember one thread I started which showed all premiership clubs league results over a 38 game period. The league table showed us in about 10th place, level with Southampton. I called for GH to go and received loads of abuse in the thread but also about 40 or so PM's, some offering support but many were fairly abusive. Most disappointingly some said they supported my view but didn't want to support it on the site due to the abuse they would recieve.

Now its not like that here yet but the signs are there. We should be free to question anything as regards to LFC. Rafa, G&H, SG, everything without getting personal abuse back. Although Rafa often baffles me, I still fully support him but when I think he's wrong i'll say so and should be free to exprees this view. Doing so doesn't make me ante Rafa, ante LFC or not a 'proper' fan.

This is an internet forum. As such there will be people who are well informed and people who don't know their footballing ar5e from their footballing elbow. Who fits into which category is upto individual posters but if someone starts a thread which you think is rubbish simply ignore it. Comments such as Momo is ****e don't take a thread anywhere but equally if thats someone's view then he should be free to express it.

In short people should feel free to post views that most will disagree with without getting a shedload of abuse back. Who knows, (like with getting rid of GH), that monority view may one day becomes the majority one.

Are you replying to my post ? If yes, then I have some points to clarify:

1) I have not abused anybody and I don't go that route. Look at all my posts.
2) I have never said it's a rubbish thread but that the discussions are rather pointless because Rafa has his ways. We will end up discussing and rehashing the same views over and over again.
3) GH probably never had the track record Rafa had. He won the league at PSG once and it was some years before taking over at LFC. Rafa did it twice in a very tough league, using the same methods (or close to the same methods) he used at Valencia. There has been constant progress since he's been here. *
4) * Based on that last point, he deserves a little more respect (same for Momo) than what I've seen in here as most questioning have been done in a rash manner IMO. We still beat Everton on Sat FFS.

[Icon]

Tricky one this.

We really seem to have the players - don't we?
We definately have the best manager - right?
And the mix of talent to experience is perfect too - isn't it?

So which of the above returns a 'no'?
Because it looks like something is still missing...