Whats the Point?

[Craig_H]

Nothing but what's to say it can't be bridged? If we win our game in hand we are one point behind United and if we beat Arsenal on Sunday we are right back within striking distance of them. To say we are fighting for 3rd and 4th so early in the season when we are still in a decent position is IMO very knee jerk.

I'm not saying it 'cant' be bridged, but the point i am making is that when we have a blip, we've all seen examples before of how it's not been JUST a blip, but more like our level.

So this season, when things have gone pear shaped, it's a natural instinct to think 'Here we go again' rather than "We're still unbeaten, we will still do it" because it's what we've been used to.

Someone (might've been you) mentioned about United's poor start and compared it to our blip, saying how we're writing ourselves off but we shouldnt, because United had a blip and look at them now. My post was in reply to that - United have PROVEN that they can come good despite a blip and win the title, we havent.

THAT is why people will look at a blip by us and think the worst, because every single time we've seen a 'blip' it's turned out to be one we DIDNT recover from (to win the league), whereas United have done.

[Neil Young]

And Rafa dont win many Premier League titles either. Is the penny starting to drop?

Rafa also don't sub Stevie G often, isn't he? Rafa also don't accuse Lescott of diving often, do he? Rafa also don't have funds available before like he have now, done he?

Is the penny starting to drop that your syllogistic logic may be flawed?

[captainfog]

Well, it was an argument thrown about, at the end of the day we haven't got a clue mate.

It's been well documented that he was after Alves a couple of years ago, he didn't get him. He was probably (that's speculation) after Villa too. And the list can go on.

He's building a squad which is slowly (IMHO) coming closer and closer. We're getting results, even when we're playing ****e, which shows we're starting to have the quality required. The crunch will come against teams such as Arsenal and Manure, when we'll know if we can beat them or not. We should have beaten Chelsea if it was not for a freak decision.

To be fair to him, he hasn't said we were gonna challenge outright this season, but simply stated that it will become clearer in the months to come. We're potentially 3rd (if we win our game in hand) and 3 points off the top if we beat Arsenal on Sunday. Not dramatic isn't it ?

when you put it like that - things aren't that bad really are they?

well done Fredo.

[Guest]

And Rafa dont win many Premier League titles either. Is the penny starting to drop?

He's into his 4th season ! Give him more time FFS. It's not been our way to jump the gun on managers.

[Craig_H]

Babel?

Yep. He's raw, inexperienced and still learning.

But he also has the raw materials to be a match winner. If he has the right mentality and attitude, which means that unlike Cisse, he'll listen to what he is being told, and act upon it.

Cisse had all the physical attributes but not the mental ones.

If Babel has a footballing brain, he can go on to be a superb asset.

He's an example of what i've been crying out for since i cant remember - he's an IMPACT player. Not one who just trudges along slowly and reacts to what happens. He MAKES them happen. Like Gerrard and Torres, although granted Babel is still at an earlier stage of development.

But he has that spark. He needs to be allowed to use and devlop those attributes.

[CAD]

**** off you ****


better?

There you go

[AFII]

It's easier for United to change a few players because they always play in the same position so they know what job they should do.

They also play the same tactics all the way through the youth teams to the PL and that also makes it easier for a player to step in when he need to do it.

Our youth teams and reserves have now started to do the same. They play 4-1-3-1-1 just as our PL team.

It will take time but Rafa will get us to the promised lands.

You can't change a club top to bottom the way Rafa has done in just four years and expect that everything will be perfect.

[Guest]

I'm not saying it 'cant' be bridged, but the point i am making is that when we have a blip, we've all seen examples before of how it's not been JUST a blip, but more like our level.

So this season, when things have gone pear shaped, it's a natural instinct to think 'Here we go again' rather than "We're still unbeaten, we will still do it" because it's what we've been used to.

Someone (might've been you) mentioned about United's poor start and compared it to our blip, saying how we're writing ourselves off but we shouldnt, because United had a blip and look at them now. My post was in reply to that - United have PROVEN that they can come good despite a blip and win the title, we havent.

THAT is why people will look at a blip by us and think the worst, because every single time we've seen a 'blip' it's turned out to be one we DIDNT recover from (to win the league), whereas United have done.

It won't help when we make the players' edginess increase by putting pressure like that. Everybody work better in an environment where there's some flexibility and where things can be rectified in a calm and calculated manner.

A simple example. How can momo regain his form when he's being booed right left and center and if his manager dumps him in the reserves ? He's trying to help him regain his confidence by playing him and by allowing other players in the team to help him out. It's all about pulling for each other.

I can't see that from a good portion of our supporters at the moment. Too many whining ****ers around (no disrespect to you DJS).

[Craig_H]

Well, it was an argument thrown about, at the end of the day we haven't got a clue mate.

It's been well documented that he was after Alves a couple of years ago, he didn't get him. He was probably (that's speculation) after Villa too. And the list can go on.

He's building a squad which is slowly (IMHO) coming closer and closer. We're getting results, even when we're playing ****e, which shows we're starting to have the quality required. The crunch will come against teams such as Arsenal and Manure, when we'll know if we can beat them or not. We should have beaten Chelsea if it was not for a freak decision.

To be fair to him, he hasn't said we were gonna challenge outright this season, but simply stated that it will become clearer in the months to come. We're potentially 3rd (if we win our game in hand) and 3 points off the top if we beat Arsenal on Sunday. Not dramatic isn't it ?

Nobody is saying it's dramatic fredo. Well i'm certainly not.

The concerns arent about where we are NOW, because that's certainly acceptable. It's more about, having seen how rafa does things, not being convinced that those methods are, in the long wrong, condusive to a title winning side.

In simple terms, sure we're doing ok now. But if Rafa feels that he can continue picking the side so as to leave little continuity & continues to think that dropping top players will have no bearing on results, then no, we wont win the title and IMO, we wont come close either.

The players ARE good enough IMO. As a tactician, Rafa's second to none.

BUT, he needs to be slightly more flexible in his thinking, when it comes to changing players willy nilly, and changing ones who make the difference between winning and losing. I'm not saying he should bow to the cries of the media/pundits/fans or anything. He should realise of his OWN accord what he has to do. And if he does this, and then just tweaks his policies a little, he'll reap the rewards.

[Craig_H]

Nothing

BTW Pacaman...this is a worry in itself, if 'nothing' has happened to say the 21 point gap can be bridged.

[Neil Young]

[Craig_H]

Rafa also don't sub Stevie G often, isn't he? Rafa also don't accuse Lescott of diving often, do he? Rafa also don't have funds available before like he have now, done he?

Is the penny starting to drop that your syllogistic logic may be flawed?

Rafa has spent ****loads in his time. I'm saying my philosophy is either spend on quality, or keep your pennies in a handy place for next time. He hasnt done this, he's spent on lesser quality players.

Now, we're being told Rafa 'doesnt have the players he needs' to win the title.

Well, having spent all that money and still not having got the players he needs, perhaps it might've been better to wait, hang onto the funds and buy QUALITY players when the chance comes....no?

[Pacman]

I'm not saying it 'cant' be bridged, but the point i am making is that when we have a blip, we've all seen examples before of how it's not been JUST a blip, but more like our level.

So this season, when things have gone pear shaped, it's a natural instinct to think 'Here we go again' rather than "We're still unbeaten, we will still do it" because it's what we've been used to.

Someone (might've been you) mentioned about United's poor start and compared it to our blip, saying how we're writing ourselves off but we shouldnt, because United had a blip and look at them now. My post was in reply to that - United have PROVEN that they can come good despite a blip and win the title, we havent.

THAT is why people will look at a blip by us and think the worst, because every single time we've seen a 'blip' it's turned out to be one we DIDNT recover from (to win the league), whereas United have done.

I get what you're saying but I would also make the point that our blips under rafa have usually been almighty **** ups that have left us too far behind to recover. If you look at our form after Christmas in the past 2 seasons I think I'm right in saying (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure you will ) that we have accumulated the most points out of any of the usual top 4. So by your train of thought if we are in the same/similar position come the new year we should walk the league. We both know it doesn't work like that and a few dodgy draws and no defeats I'm confident we will at least come close this year.

[AFII]

Rafa more or less don't play the A-team players in the reserves. That's another difference between him and Houllier.

Lucas and Leto have played there but you won't see players like Sissoko, Pennant or Benayoun play for the reserves.

Alonso and Agger for example won't play for the reserves even if they need to play to get match fit. Rafa takes care of that in another way.

[Craig_H]

He's into his 4th season ! Give him more time FFS. It's not been our way to jump the gun on managers.

Wenger won the double in his first full season mate...

I'm not jumping down Rafa's throat, but in 3 full years, he hasnt come close.

The standards we need to match are enormously high mate.