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    I've been saying for over a year now (back on Koptalk) that Rafa isn't the man to win us the league, a view I came to after seeing how he was handling things in the Premiership over the same period last season. In particular his treatment of Crouch, who had been a key part of our success in the league the previous season, left me baffled. Remember the Bolton away game for example, when Crouch had scored twice in midweek only to be benched.

    Indeed, it is worth noting that almost a year ago to the day Crouch scored a good header against Bordeaux to get us a vital away victory but was promptly dropped for the Man Utd away game when we went with Kuyt up top on his own and were embarrased 2-0 in a pretty shoddy LFC performance. I knew we faced an uphill battle when I saw the same tactics had been chosen to play AC Milan, a team that had just beaten Man Utd, and we all know how that went.

    My opinion on Rafa was not a snap decision I came to, when the previous season ended I was confident we would really compete in 2006-2007 as we needed just a quality striker to partner Crouch and maybe a bit more creativity in midfield. Instead we got Pennant, who has not really created a goal by his own efforts in 6 months now, nevermind contributing with an actual goal himself, and Bellamy and Kuyt, neither of who have really established themselves as lethal strikers. One has gone, the other divides fans down the middle almost, whilst Aurelio and Gonzalez both have failed to make a mark. That said at the time of the poll on Koptalk we were doing well in Europe and I did admit that I could see him bringing more trophies to the club - including the Champions League. I was almost proved right in that respect but I don't take any satisfaction in that as I also suggested he could repeat the FA Cup success, a prediction that was pretty wide of the mark.

    Despite the unbeaten start to this season I remain unconvinced as to our title credentials, largely because we have played a number of matches which we should have won if we are to put in a sustained challenge. Man City have had an excellent start, including beating a "Big 4" team at home, whilst Aston Villa were unbeaten until the 29th October last season in the league. A cursory glance at the table shows many other sides in and around us, none of them serious title contenders, and if we continued our current unbeaten form we'd still probably not get enough points to win the title as drawing home games doesn't reap the necessary rewards and we will lose away matches sooner or later.

    My main issue with Rafa is that he doesn't appear to have a clear sense of direction as far as our attacking football is concerned. When Wenger came into Arsenal he was determined to play football a certain way and transformed the club into the pass and move academy it has become. Mourinho at Chelsea turned them into a ruthlessly efficient side, whereas previously they had been a much more entertaining team to watch. I don't wish to use Fergie in this comparison because quite frankly it was a different era when he came to Man Utd. Football has moved on since the early 80s and whilst giving a manager time is one thing, giving him too much time and too much money is another.

    Rafa has come to Liverpool and brought with him his style but can anyone tell me what that style is? Defensively you can see how well organised he has the team, but after that it pretty much breaks down and has been doing for more than just this season. I'd like to know the benefit of having a formation where fairly slow strikers like Kuyt and Voronin end up playing right and left midfield, as has been the case this season in more than one match.

    We have a criminal lack of width that hurts, of all people, Crouch the most as he is not your typical target-man type player. Perhaps that is even why he no longer sees much of the game, as Rafa knows that without quality on the flanks Crouch is going to struggle. It's no fluke that when we did well in the league back in 2005-2006 we had a fit Kewell on one flank and a rampaging Gerrard on the other. Sure, they did like to take the play infield at times, but when they did they produced goals and assists that compensated for Crouch's struggles in that department. These days we end up playing with effectively four central midfielders, as on Saturday, which makes our play so narrow that all teams have to do is defend with an extra man in midfield and invariably we are throttled as a team because usually Kuyt is dropping in there too. Back in May I joked that against Milan we played 4-6-0 but the truth wasn't far from that.

    Everyone applauds the signing of Torres but can someone explain to me how hanging our hopes on young Fernando sparkling with his pace and movement is any different to playing kick and rush to Owen under Houllier? I personally believe Owen at his peak is superior to Torres as of now and that the Owen & Heskey partnership was stronger than anything Rafa has yet to come up with in his 3.5 seasons. That in itself is a damning statement when you consider how reviled big Emile is by some LFC fans, but when you look at the strikers we've had at the club it's clear Rafa's policy has been quantity over quality. Can anyone else name a serious club in the Premiership that has fielded as many different front men as us since Rafa came? Mellor, Pongolle, Baros, Cisse, Morientes, Voronin, Crouch, Bellamy, Torres, Kuyt and Fowler, not to mention others that have played off one or those (Garcia, Gerrard etc) or in "lesser" games like the Carling Cup.

    Rafa has had in excess of 120M to spend yet on Saturday every single player in a pretty strong back four was a pre-Rafa player. So defensively all he did was organise them, not sign them. Gerrard, who has been inconsitent this season, was the guy who got us back into the game with a typical piece of Gerrard play. Yet again not something that Rafa brought to the club. As an attacking force we were pretty lame, Howard only had to make one or two saves in the first half, and there is only one person who bears the responsibility for that - Rafa. And it's not like it is the first time this season either as against Marseille I think their keeper didn't have to make an actual save for more than the first hour of the game. This in a supposed home fixture.

    I appreciate that 120M doesn't compare favourably with Chelsea or indeed Man Utd, but it should at least buy us a team capable of playing good football. Or if not good football, effective football that dominates sides and produces convincing wins. I can't say we've done either this season aside from a couple of games against extremely poor opposition when our natural superior skill level has counted. We've also been fortunate that the table has thrown us some pretty easy fixtures. I mean, if you look at our games so far we've played and beaten sides mostly outside the UEFA Cup places and yet still dropped points against teams in the bottom-half.

    As far as playing First XI sides the Derby and Toulouse home matches apart we've been scrappy, all over the shop, with no clear style, width or substance to our play. This was evident from the opening day game against Villa when most of our attacking play went through the middle, in particular Gerrard who ended up rescuing us for the fact we didn't take our chances for the umpteenth time under Benitez. That we've reverted to fielding defenders and strikers in the right and left midfield positions demonstrates how poorly we bought in the Summer because this was a problem last season yet with over 45M gone out the door we've not solved it.

    I often read people talking about how Rafa's purchases mean he want's us to play a certain way, like a 3-5-2 or a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 or a 4-1-4-1 or a <insert random formation here>. Surely after over 3 seasons at the club we should have a formation in place, a good idea of how we want to play, rather than constantly picking teams to combat the opposition? We are Liverpool, we put our best, most balanced side out on the pitch and force the opposition to beat us. The odd minor tweak here or there if a special game demands it, such as throwing Momo the destroyer in, but not constantly rotating a side and putting players in positions they cannot play because we want to combat something an inferior opposition *might* do.

    Indeed, the tactical battle on Saturday was a chilling indication of how badly it can go wrong under Rafa. The first 15 minutes or so we had Everton on the ropes but once Moyes, a decent yet hardly top-class manager, got his team right we struggled and had to endure anothing display of maximum effort but minimum quality. Only when they went down to 10 men did the balance shift our way, not anything that Rafa did to tactically alter the game.

    I'm not writing off our title challenge, or indeed our European campaign, because we have the tools to compete in both. We may not have all the best players for the each position but I do feel we could fashion a strong side from the squad that could compete with any in the league if it is sent out to play in the proper way. The problem is that when the tinkerman starts moving his pieces around we invariably come up short because we are asking too many players to play in too many positions that aren't suited to them.

    On Saturday Rafa chirped on about needing to play more with the brain and less with the heart. If he truly believes that then he should use his brain to acknowledge that last season we won 3 in 4 games when Crouch started in all competitions. If we did that in the league, and drew a few of the others, we would win the title. Yet instead Rafa goes on, head down with his all-work no-craft strategy, and leaves us fans hoping rather than expecting things to significantly improve.

    And in Ged's final season that was a feeling I seem to remember having quite a few times.

    Comment


      Kinell bigfooty
      Contrary to popular belief, I have huge genitals.

      Comment


        Originally posted by superdan View Post
        Kinell bigfooty
        Ctrl - C / Ctrl - V

        Comment


          Originally posted by fredo View Post
          It's impossible for Rafa to implement the same blueprint he used with Valencia (well, he would try), simply because the players are different, and their qualities may differ. Valencia did have a player ala Stevie G in Aimar, but he was used sparingly because he was inconsistent and wasn't probably as tactically aware as other lesser blessed players.

          All of that to say that Rafa probably doesn't like our over reliance on Stevie G, therefore has made a case in point on Saturday. Stevie just feels that he can do it all by himself sometimes and for me that's his main weakness. No player can do that. It's all about the team.

          By sharing the responsibility around and by involving more players to take it, makes the team much more dangerous and difficult to control. It's a team game in the end.
          Fredo

          This is a really odd post in my view. Stevie is kind of criticised for taking too much responsibility and you (rightly) state that responsibility has to be shared around.

          Well yes, but thats not for Steven to share. Its for others to step up to the exact same plate.

          The more people we have taking the exact same burden of responsibility the better.

          I actually felt he hid against Tottenham and he annoyed me. But hiding didn't mean the responsibility was suddenly shared. It just meant that we had one less player assuming responsibility.

          Responsiblity can only be shared by everyone else taking it on board, not by any given player relinquishing some.

          Comment


            Embarrassing.

            Winning the league will be all the more sweeter with idiots like him around. Kings of their own keyboards. Have to laugh at the bit where he says our title challenge isn't over, despite saying earlier that Rafa will never win the leaque here.

            Following on from that wind up thread (I'm not him by the way) I'd like to see Rafa's staunchest critics, who have been on his back ever since he took over and find fault with everything he does, just come out and say they want him out and give us a list of managers who will do better. It would save a lot of confusion in the long run.

            Comment


              Originally posted by alunevans View Post
              Fredo

              This is a really odd post in my view. Stevie is kind of criticised for taking too much responsibility and you (rightly) state that responsibility has to be shared around.

              Well yes, but thats not for Steven to share. Its for others to step up to the exact same plate.

              The more people we have taking the exact same burden of responsibility the better.

              I actually felt he hid against Tottenham and he annoyed me. But hiding didn't mean the responsibility was suddenly shared. It just meant that we had one less player assuming responsibility.

              Responsiblity can only be shared by everyone else taking it on board, not by any given player relinquishing some.
              Yes, yes, you have a point. It's more or less what I was trying to say. Stevie, too many times bears an air of 'I'm the ****ing man', and maybe, just maybe that pisses off Rafa sometimes. Hopefully not, because that would be taking an important trait of Stevie's character and which makes him tick.

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                Originally posted by King Kenny View Post
                Embarrassing.

                Winning the league will be all the more sweeter with idiots like him around. Kings of their own keyboards. Have to laugh at the bit where he says our title challenge isn't over, despite saying earlier that Rafa will never win the leaque here.

                Following on from that wind up thread (I'm not him by the way) I'd like to see Rafa's staunchest critics, who have been on his back ever since he took over and find fault with everything he does, just come out and say they want him out and give us a list of managers who will do better. It would save a lot of confusion in the long run.
                For one second I thought you were Kenneth.

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                  I've not read all of this thread so forgive me if I've missed a few thngs.

                  My opinion is that Rafa IS the man to take us forward. You only have to look at where we were when he took over and compare it to where we are now and also look at his previous record to see what he's capable of.

                  Yes, he makes mistakes but you show me someone who doesn't. When he makes mistakes it's only fair that people vent their frustrations about it but more often than not he gets things right no matter how unpopular his decisions may be at times.

                  Our early season form was excellent and we were playing some really nice stuff. At that time I thought for sure that we would be in contention come the end of the season. Since then we've had a dip in form but somehow still managed to achieve some decent results. Not great but decent.

                  Under Houllier we'd never have resqued a point against Spurs or won at Villa and we definitely wouldn't have had the bollocks to get in the faces of the bluenoses and steal three points from under their noses. All this when we're having a bad run.

                  I still think we can challenge for the title this year and until we're out of the title race 100&#37; I'll still believe that.

                  That's not to say that I'm part of the RCDNW brigade but I'd just prefer to have a little faith in the guy that's took us to two CL finals, an FA cup final and also taken us to our highest points tally in the premiership.
                  Babel fanclub member # 4!!!

                  **** OFF MOURINHO!!!!!!:whatever:

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                    Rafa is the man, Rafa is one of the best coaches in the world if not the best in the world.

                    We are lucky to have him look what he's done with us for the last 3 years.
                    When you feel like you're done, you are not alone........

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by fredo View Post
                      Can people pass me some pop corn please ?
                      i don't understand all the popcorn references. can someone please enlighten me?

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by alunevans View Post
                        i don't understand all the popcorn references. can someone please enlighten me?
                        to watch the entertainment?
                        Thomas Hicks Senior

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by King Kenny View Post
                          Embarrassing.

                          Winning the league will be all the more sweeter with idiots like him around. Kings of their own keyboards. Have to laugh at the bit where he says our title challenge isn't over, despite saying earlier that Rafa will never win the leaque here.

                          Following on from that wind up thread (I'm not him by the way) I'd like to see Rafa's staunchest critics, who have been on his back ever since he took over and find fault with everything he does, just come out and say they want him out and give us a list of managers who will do better. It would save a lot of confusion in the long run.
                          i'm a rafaskeptic. i've been a huge supporter of rafa since he came. i don't want him out. just that many of his decisions are things i fundamentally disagree with and i'm allowed my view on the game seeing as i pay so much to follow the team.

                          but if i don't want him out why should i come out and say it. you make too many assumptions methinks, and its hard to discuss anything with anybody if they aren't actually listening to what you're saying.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by fredo View Post
                            Yes, yes, you have a point. It's more or less what I was trying to say. Stevie, too many times bears an air of 'I'm the ****ing man', and maybe, just maybe that pisses off Rafa sometimes. Hopefully not, because that would be taking an important trait of Stevie's character and which makes him tick.
                            If that pisses him off then all the more reason to worry. It should piss him off when he's in the minority doing it.

                            Winning teams have captains in the majority, not in the minority.

                            You don't bark down the ones who take the responsibility, you deal with the ones who don't.

                            Comment


                              Still reading Bigfooty's post - gimme a day or so...

                              Comment


                                Good post, Bigfooty .

                                Although it's what many people on here bemoan we don't have enough of - i.e. a thought out, considered post - it's content and target will mean that you're open to the KingKenny-type retort....which I bemoan.

                                Being a fellow skeptic, of course, I'm bound to say that.

                                Frank
                                Francis.

                                ...."Any team that concedes as few goals as we concede is going to be tough to play against..." - Fernando Torres on Liverpool

                                And when I say 'play Gerrard on the left', I mean on the left

                                A defensive mid for £18m?

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