Whats the Point?

[Craig_H]

Now now, mate. Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

It's a bit of a moot point though scott, those extra what, 6 points or so...would've left us just inches away from the title? Only a mere 15 points

The main point remains the same...nowhere near.

[Craig_H]

A SOLID NEWCASTLE???? lol mate

Seriously they were in decline by the time GH took over though I do accept your point on Leeds. why i mention chelsea is that no team in the UK has ever spent so much in 2 seasons compared to the rest of the PL it was a 'money is no object' type of spending

Mate, how does Chelsea's spending stop us performing well enough against the other 18 clubs?

[molonyg]

Now now, mate. Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

The Fulham game for example!! remember Neil Warnock and other complaing re our team selection

[Sir Bob]

The comparison between Gh & Rafa is a fair one in my view. For the early part of his reign Gh did a great job and I still think to this day but for his heart problems he would have won the league with us. For me he wasn't the same man after his illness.

Rafa has sone some great things but he needs to show he can win the title for us in the next 2 years or his position will become very difficult. If we really go close this year or next then Rafa should be given all the time he needs. If however, we end up 10 or so points adrift I think it will be time for the board to strongly consider how far he can take us as a manager.

For all his brilliance in Europe, his performance in the league has been mixed.
I still believe he can win us the title but I can't help but feel the sands of time are slowly running out for him.

[Craig_H]

The comparison between Gh & Rafa is a fair one in my view. For the early part of his reign Gh did a great job and I still think to this day but for his heart problems he would have won the league with us. For me he wasn't the same man after his illness.

Rafa has sone some great things but he needs to show he can win the title for us in the next 2 years or his position will become very difficult. If we really go close this year or next then Rafa should be given all the time he needs. If however, we end up 10 or so points adrift I think it will be time for the board to strongly consider how far he can take us as a manager.

For all his brilliance in Europe, his performance in the league has been mixed.
I still believe he can win us the title but I can't help but feel the sands of time are slowly running out for him.

Providing we then dont go backwards and start finishing 10+ points behind again, yes.

And I still believe he can win us the title too, but only if he relaxes the strictness of some of his methodology though.

[brightred]

People forget the good Houllier did for us and almost died for the cause

It's not like he chose to nearly die for us!

He wasn't a martyr.

[kurtangle01]

The cautious approach i refer to, is one where we play 2 defensive CMs in a game. I consider that overly cautious and having a negative effect on our attacking prowess.

As for the rotation...of course it's an issue when we dont win, because more often than not, it LEADS to us not winning.

And that aside, the lack of consistency and stability it causes doesnt increase a team's chances of winning games. That much is obvious.

I dont mind him rotating with proper purpose, but sometimes he does it just because it's 'his' thing.

Just for the record. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you about rotation. I said as much to you before the Birmingham match when we met. Remember when we were talking about no Torres in the starting line up?

I agree that it can cause problems and there does seem to be far to many changes each match. The best players, when fit, are rarely changed though and as the season progresses I'd expect the amount of changes per match to calm down.

The negative tactics you refer to are what I don't entirely agree with although I can see what your point is, even tough I don't completely agree. We're not as easy on the eye as some of the other top clubs but we create just as many chances.

What I would like to see from Rafa is for him to implement the sort of passing system that we used to see from his Valencia side but I think that we're and Aimar type of player away from that. Wheter or not Rafa thinks that sort of system would work in England is another matter but I don't see why it couldn't.

[molonyg]

Mate, how does Chelsea's spending stop us performing well enough against the other 18 clubs?

It doesn't, but firstly it pratically guarenteed them a place in the top 4. So that is my point re the positions achieved re GH and Rafa.
Secondly if you are comparing the squads of the 2 managers and how much they have achieved Rafa has achieved one of the 2 main trophies which GH didn't.
Thirdly if you look at the squads that each had when they took over, Rafa had a far weaker squad to work with and was also far more restricted financially then GH was ie had to sell before buying

Now that Rafa can compete in the Transfer mkt, the next season or two is the best time to judge the progress we have made under Rafa

[kurtangle01]

It doesn't, but firstly it pratically guarenteed them a place in the top 4. So that is my point re the positions achieved re GH and Rafa.
Secondly if you are comparing the squads of the 2 managers and how much they have achieved Rafa has achieved one of the 2 main trophies which GH didn't.
Thirdly if you look at the squads that each had when they took over, Rafa had a far weaker squad to work with and was also far more restricted financially then GH was ie had to sell before buying

Now that Rafa can compete in the Transfer mkt, the next season or two is the best time to judge the progress we have made under Rafa

[Craig_H]

I do agree to a point, but the way some of you talk, it's as if Rafa's had to make do with a budget of £5m per season...

He's spent over £100m since he came here. Yes, he sold players too, but so what? He still spent over £100m and for that kind of outlay, you'd expect a serious title challenge.

Fingers crossed it'll arrive this season.

[Deadlogic]

First point I'll make.

We're unbeaten in the league.

Surely the most important thing at the moment?

Secondly, all this ****e about "not understanding Rafa's tactics" or his "substitutions", is exactly that - ****e.

You're not meant to ****ing understand them - Rafa and the team are (and do), so do yourselves (and everyone else) a favour and don't bother trying.

Us mere mortals, and opposition Managers/Teams are meant to be in the dark over his decisions. Surely that's the ****ing point? To do the unpredictable, and still get the result - which as I alluded to in my first point, we have got the results.

I don't see the problem, to be honest.

We're still picking up points, whilst at times not playing particulary well, which is a definite sign of a title winning/challenging side, so why all the moaning?

None of us know as much about football as we like to think we do. If we did, we sure as **** wouldn't be sitting on our arses writing about it on this place.

People like Rafa, Wenger, Mourinho (bye bye), Ferguson (whiskey nosed ****face) and any other manager worth their salt out there, study all facets of football, day in, day out, hours on end.

We, watch it. Read a bit about it on horse**** websites, and play ultrarealisticwowimreally****inggoodatthisyabastar d football games, and think we're "in the know."

We're not in the know, and never will have the same knowledge as the people out there actually "doing it", so the sooner some people accept that, and get back to doing what we're supposed to be doing - you know, ****ing supporting this team and the manager, then the easier and more enjoyable it becomes. Again.

Seriously, next time you want to question a man who's won the UEFA Cup, European Cup (and been runner up...) the Super Cup, won 2 League titles in a league that's regarded as the strongest in the world, won the FA Cup, been to the final of the Carling Cup and World Club Championship, signed some of the best players we've had at this club since we last won the league, and conducts himself with total dignity (unlike some sour miserable *******s I could mention), then do yourself a small favour...

Peel yourself from your stinking computer chair, take a deep breath, and remember - you're a ****ing idiot.

[alunevans]

How much time? If we finish 3rd or worse this season then Rafa will have at best matched Houllier's average during his last 4 seasons in charge. If 4 years and around 140M (assuming we spend money in January) is not enough then someone will need to tell me what is? 8 years and 240M? Where does it stop?

We are no better to watch now than we were under Houllier. At least then we had a truly world-class forward whose strengths we played to. I'm not even sure we're going to get the best out of Fernando because if Rafa's reign so far is to be considered indicative at all then Torres will only get worse, not better, because Rafa simply cannot coach & improve attacking players.

To be fair I think we're better to watch than under Houllier, and I don't think we played to Owen's strengths at all under Ged. From what I recall we just isolated Owen and lumped it to him and expected him to do the rest.

[Tom]

The problem I have is that much of this criticism of Rafa comes straight out of the 606 school of "insight". It's ****ing tedious complaint culture bollocks, especially seeing as we're unbeaten in the league and have had our best start for years. Even on saturday some of these people put the most negative construction on everything, this is after we've won a typical scrappy derby with a brilliantly ballsy end of match subsitution by Rafa, which showed why he is a top-level football manager and people on here......aren't.

I excuse people like Alun who you can have a sensible chat with even if we disagree.

[Tom]

First point I'll make.

We're unbeaten in the league.

Surely the most important thing at the moment?

Secondly, all this ****e about "not understanding Rafa's tactics" or his "substitutions", is exactly that - ****e.

You're not meant to ****ing understand them - Rafa and the team are (and do), so do yourselves (and everyone else) a favour and don't bother trying.

Us mere mortals, and opposition Managers/Teams are meant to be in the dark over his decisions. Surely that's the ****ing point? To do the unpredictable, and still get the result - which as I alluded to in my first point, we have got the results.

I don't see the problem, to be honest.

We're still picking up points, whilst at times not playing particulary well, which is a definite sign of a title winning/challenging side, so why all the moaning?

None of us know as much about football as we like to think we do. If we did, we sure as **** wouldn't be sitting on our arses writing about it on this place.

People like Rafa, Wenger, Mourinho (bye bye), Ferguson (whiskey nosed ****face) and any other manager worth their salt out there, study all facets of football, day in, day out, hours on end.

We, watch it. Read a bit about it on horse**** websites, and play ultrarealisticwowimreally****inggoodatthisyabastar d football games, and think we're "in the know."

We're not in the know, and never will have the same knowledge as the people out there actually "doing it", so the sooner some people accept that, and get back to doing what we're supposed to be doing - you know, ****ing supporting this team and the manager, then the easier and more enjoyable it becomes. Again.

Seriously, next time you want to question a man who's won the UEFA Cup, European Cup (and been runner up...) the Super Cup, won 2 League titles in a league that's regarded as the strongest in the world, won the FA Cup, been to the final of the Carling Cup and World Club Championship, signed some of the best players we've had at this club since we last won the league, and conducts himself with total dignity (unlike some sour miserable *******s I could mention), then do yourself a small favour...

Peel yourself from your stinking computer chair, take a deep breath, and remember - you're a ****ing idiot.

best post on here for months. Agree with every word.

[AFII]

What people seems to forget is that Houllier left behind a few **** players on high wages so we couldn't sell them and had to loan them out. That left Rafa with only around £7m-£8m to spend every transfer window.

You can't expect any manager to be able to change an average team to title winners in just two, three years on that kind of transfer budget.

You need to be able to sign top class players if you want to win the title and they will cost very much.

Rafa has been after a lot of high quality players but he has not been able to afford them.