Whats the Point?

[akjs123]

Wenger won the title in his first full season in charge. The season before he joined them Arsenal had finished 5th, then joint-3rd with us in the campaign where he joined them after a couple of months.

Henry was bought after Wenger had won the title, not before. He built on success in the league, achieved with a relatively unknown Anelka up front, rather than going out and spending the big bucks on superstar signings.

Rafa has not had to build his team from scratch. He inherited a squad of mixed ability but on Saturday the back four were all pre-Rafa purchases or came through the ranks prior to him arriving. Whilst Sami has been replaced in recent seasons to be fair three of them have been first-choice under Rafa (Finnan, Carra and Riise). Gerrard was also around before Rafa and those four are amongst the players who still see the most games for us every season.

In some ways you could compare this to Wenger who came in at Arsenal and inherited that solid defensive setup that they were famed for.

My personal view is that I would quite gladly swap Istanbul for a team that had made significant progress in terms of the football we play and the performances we put in. Instead, over the last 14 months or so, I feel that we've stagnated as an attacking side despite pouring millions upon millions into that area of the team.

It's almost inevitable now that we will never be an attractive footballing side, that is far too much to expect under Rafa. The best we can hope for is we become ruthlessly effective like Chelsea in their first couple of seasons under Mourinho, then again if that gets us the title nobody - including myself - will care.

In Rafa's first season, our team had so many injuries it was unreal. Despite that Rafa won us the CL and came 5th. In his next season, he reached 82 points, which, in Arsene's early years would have won us the title. You might say it wont now but that is because the benchmark has been set very high so it is impossible to achieve that kind of consistancy with average players and even Wenger wouldnt have been able to do that then.
Compared to Arsenal, who had Anelka and then Henry, we didnt have any good striker on our books. We bought Morientes who was a big name player but he failed to settle in the country. We were also interested in David Villa at that time who we could have got for £7-8m but he decided he didnt like the English weather or the Beatles.
I know everyone wants us to play attacking football like the scum and arse do but the reality is that it wont happen because Rafa is a tactical manager. You will just have to make do with the fact that we will win European cups with Rafa because teams playing attacking football have rarely done well in Europe(Rafa has reached as many CL finals in 3 years as Wenger and Demento have in their combined tenure at their clubs). Barca is the obvious exception but their set of attacking players is the best in the world.
As far as winning the league goes, I have no doubt in my mind that we will win it with Rafa. Rafa has already shown he can go close to the target with a much inferior squad and a tighter schedule of games(in 05-06) I have no reason to doubt he can do one better than that.

[AFII]

**** it then, sack Rafa, get Roy back.

I doubt that we would qualify for the CL with him in charge and then we wouldn't get more or less any quality players joining us if we don't offer them sky high wages.

[Manofthebog]

I doubt that we would qualify for the CL with him in charge and then we wouldn't get more or less any quality players joining us if we don't offer them sky high wages.

Therefore........................

[AFII]

Therefore........................

...we should get in Wenger as our assistant manager

[bigfooty]

In Rafa's first season, our team had so many injuries it was unreal. Despite that Rafa won us the CL and came 5th. In his next season, he reached 82 points, which, in Arsene's early years would have won us the title.

Yes, and I've said many times I felt really confident at the end of that season. That 2006-2007 could be the year. Instead we signed Kuyt, Bellamy, Gonzalez, Aurelio and Pennant. Of that quintent is there any that have, since then, made themselves undroppable? Kuyt comes close for some fans but of the rest 2 have left, 1 is permanently injured and the other has been anaemic for six months when it comes to supplying goals, scoring something like 1 in 40 league games. And even Kuyt is by no means the first name on the team-sheet.

At the end of that season I felt priority #1 was a partner for Crouch and perhaps a quality wide player. Kuyt and Crouch shone brightly as a duo but only ended up starting 1 in 4 games with Crouch finding himself slipping down the pecking order despite being the only "first choice" striker retained for that campaign.

Interestingly enough Houllier, 4 years earlier, finished the season of a World Cup with 80 pts and 2nd place. The World Cup came, he bought some iffy players, and we were never the same in the league as he tried to shoehorn players that just were not good enough into the side. 4 years later and history repeated under Rafa.

[dirty_sanchez]

Another important point is that you can get a player cheaper if you play attractive football and more top class players want to join you.

What? If you're a better team, players are cheaper? I don't follow.

[akjs123]

Yes, and I've said many times I felt really confident at the end of that season. That 2006-2007 could be the year. Instead we signed Kuyt, Bellamy, Gonzalez, Aurelio and Pennant. Of that quintent is there any that have, since then, made themselves undroppable? Kuyt comes close for some fans but of the rest 2 have left, 1 is permanently injured and the other has been anaemic for six months when it comes to supplying goals, scoring something like 1 in 40 league games. And even Kuyt is by no means the first name on the team-sheet.

At the end of that season I felt priority #1 was a partner for Crouch and perhaps a quality wide player. Kuyt and Crouch shone brightly as a duo but only ended up starting 1 in 4 games with Crouch finding himself slipping down the pecking order despite being the only "first choice" striker retained for that campaign.

Interestingly enough Houllier, 4 years earlier, finished the season of a World Cup with 80 pts and 2nd place. The World Cup came, he bought some iffy players, and we were never the same in the league as he tried to shoehorn players that just were not good enough into the side. 4 years later and history repeated under Rafa.

But there is a lot of difference between Rafa and Houllier isnt there. Rafa during those times, tried for Alves, Simao etc but for some reason couldnt get them.
I think it will be a fairer evaluation of Rafa if you put the squads for the past 4 years next to each other and then compare how Rafa has improved the team.
There will be some people claiming it would be better to buy 1 £15m player instead of 3 squad players but that would be the wrong way to build a squad.
If will be really really unfair to say history repeated under Rafa. How much did Houllier pay for those 3 and how much we got from selling them. Compare to how much we made on Bellamy, Gonzalez etc and its a totally different story.
You also cant turn a blind eye to the fact that we have now got Torres and Mascherano. We were interested in Mancini and Malouda but couldnt get them. Whose fault is that. Momo will probably leave in January/July. How much will we make on him. Rafa has shown, now that proper money has been available to him, that he is not as bad in the transfer market as people make him out to be.

[alunevans]

The lack of match winners is what is hurting us, if our midfielders/second strikers could chip in with 10-20 goals, then we would be in a much more healthy position.

Why don't they get the goals is the question? is it because Rafa is overly cautious bordering on negative?

our wingers dont get in the box too often. i noticed ronaldo get another last night while positioned on the penalty spot or thereabouts.

i noticed that both pennant and babel when he played there remain quite wide even when the attack is forming on the other flank. not sure of this is deliberate or coincidence but shouldn't the winger get in the box when the attack is on the other side.

perhaps we'd get more goals from midfield if the wide players did that. just thinking out loud.

[akjs123]

our wingers dont get in the box too often. i noticed ronaldo get another last night while positioned on the penalty spot or thereabouts.

i noticed that both pennant and babel when he played there remain quite wide even when the attack is forming on the other flank. not sure of this is deliberate or coincidence but shouldn't the winger get in the box when the attack is on the other side.

perhaps we'd get more goals from midfield if the wide players did that. just thinking out loud.

Babel might have done that under instruction because he has a tendency to come inside as he is not an out and out winger anyway.
Pennant, on the other hand, is a very one dimensional player. The only thing he does is go out whenever he get the ball, even though the better option would be going through the middle.

[dww]

our wingers dont get in the box too often. i noticed ronaldo get another last night while positioned on the penalty spot or thereabouts.

i noticed that both pennant and babel when he played there remain quite wide even when the attack is forming on the other flank. not sure of this is deliberate or coincidence but shouldn't the winger get in the box when the attack is on the other side.

perhaps we'd get more goals from midfield if the wide players did that. just thinking out loud.

I think the problem with each of those two is different. Pennant is a natural wing hugger and to be honest often makes terrible decisions about when he comes inside with or without the ball. He looked to be adding a back post run to his repetoir earlier this season though. Babel I think is just on instruction as he is learning the position. His goal against Derby was quite central.

However I think there is some truth that Rafa likes his wide players to offer width rather than an extra man in the box when the ball is on the opposite wing.

[alunevans]

its probably stating the obvious to say that if the wingers stood on the back stick when the other flank is attacking that theyd score more goals

[dww]

its probably stating the obvious to say that if the wingers stood on the back stick when the other flank is attacking that theyd score more goals

It was something I commented on re: Pennant a bit last season. I think that running in to the back post area is the most useful place for a winger when the ball is out the otherside. Worst case scenario in most instances you will draw the fullback in and have equal chnces to any over hit ball anyway.

[peekay]

It was something I commented on re: Pennant a bit last season. I think that running in to the back post area is the most useful place for a winger when the ball is out the otherside. Worst case scenario in most instances you will draw the fullback in and have equal chnces to any over hit ball anyway.

The only winger who does that in our team is gulp.... Harry Kewell. Another reason why Pennant does not score enough goals is that for an attacking player he has a woeful shot.

[Sir Bob]

The comparison between Wenger & Rafa is an interesting one. Wenger is a genius at spotting young talent and bringing it through. He's built about 3 great sides now with relatively little cash in todays terms. Fabregas is a brilliant example, he's the best young central midfielder in the world and Wenger snaffled him from Barca for peanuts. Anelka was another, bought for £500,000, sold for £20m+. Although its early days in comparison for Rafa at LFC, he hasn't yet brought any youngsters through.

However, despite all his brilliance Wenger has a poor record in Europe. One CL & 1 UEFA Cup Final is a modest return for such talented squads. Rafa on the other hand has already got us to 2 CL final and won the Uefa Cup at Valnecia.

In summary then Rafa has to show that he can match Wenger domestically whilst Wenger needs to match Rafa abroad to make the step to managerial greatness.

[kurtangle01]

First point I'll make.

We're unbeaten in the league.

Surely the most important thing at the moment?

Secondly, all this ****e about "not understanding Rafa's tactics" or his "substitutions", is exactly that - ****e.

You're not meant to ****ing understand them - Rafa and the team are (and do), so do yourselves (and everyone else) a favour and don't bother trying.

Us mere mortals, and opposition Managers/Teams are meant to be in the dark over his decisions. Surely that's the ****ing point? To do the unpredictable, and still get the result - which as I alluded to in my first point, we have got the results.

I don't see the problem, to be honest.

We're still picking up points, whilst at times not playing particulary well, which is a definite sign of a title winning/challenging side, so why all the moaning?

None of us know as much about football as we like to think we do. If we did, we sure as **** wouldn't be sitting on our arses writing about it on this place.

People like Rafa, Wenger, Mourinho (bye bye), Ferguson (whiskey nosed ****face) and any other manager worth their salt out there, study all facets of football, day in, day out, hours on end.

We, watch it. Read a bit about it on horse**** websites, and play ultrarealisticwowimreally****inggoodatthisyabastar d football games, and think we're "in the know."

We're not in the know, and never will have the same knowledge as the people out there actually "doing it", so the sooner some people accept that, and get back to doing what we're supposed to be doing - you know, ****ing supporting this team and the manager, then the easier and more enjoyable it becomes. Again.

Seriously, next time you want to question a man who's won the UEFA Cup, European Cup (and been runner up...) the Super Cup, won 2 League titles in a league that's regarded as the strongest in the world, won the FA Cup, been to the final of the Carling Cup and World Club Championship, signed some of the best players we've had at this club since we last won the league, and conducts himself with total dignity (unlike some sour miserable *******s I could mention), then do yourself a small favour...

Peel yourself from your stinking computer chair, take a deep breath, and remember - you're a ****ing idiot.

Best post ever.