rafa's football philosophy

[el matador]

Sounds awfully like Houllier that.

I actually don't think that's true though.

What's really frustrating me at the moment is that I remember that Valencia side Rafa had 5 years ago coming into Anfield and absolutely walking all over us. The 1 and 2 touch passing was irresistible that night.

Yet the team he's built with us now looks a million miles away from that. And most worryingly some of the players he's bought are completely incapable of playing at that level of passing and movement. Like Kuyt and Sissoko for example. And he still uses players like Riise who are brutal in possession and distribution. We simply don't have enough technically proficient players in our team, and even some who can't execute the basics of the game.

So what philosophy is he using then?

Forget rotation, it's not helping but it's not the big problem here. With the style of play we currently use we simply don’t score enough goals, or look like doing so. Looking back to season 2005/06 where we finished 3rd with 82 points if I remember rightly, that season we had Crouch, Morientes, Cisse, Gerrard, Kewell and Garcia all scoring goals, and even then the success of that side was based mostly on a strong defence. What's happened since then? A series of changes to personnel which have taken us sideways not forward: Kuyt's replaced Morientes, Pennant’s replaced Cisse (who played mostly right side that season) - now I absolutely don't rate Cisse but at least he chipped in with a few goals, not even Pennant can manage that; 1 goal in 70 odd games. Shocking. Garcia’s gone, and with it a lot of ingenuity from the attack.

So we're over 3 years in and with all that Houllier deadwood he's inherited he's by and large go rid of it and just signed a lot more. Yes he's brought in some quality players like Agger, Alonso, Reina, Mascherano and now Torres, so why aren't we a lot better than that side of 2005/06 which was still half made up of Houllier buys? And more to the point why does it seem that the quality of our football has gone backwards as well. It's hit and hope right now. It’s predictable. It’s very worrying.

We were given a lesson in pass and move football - something that was the hallmark of liverpool fc. Valencia were just fantastic and we couldnt get near them.

I think you have to realise that when benitez first came to us he had a massive job to do. In effect bar 3 or 4 players he had to replace the entire first team with players of his type of quality with a £20m budget. In addition our first choice striker left.

He has tried to do this in stages and even though some of his buys have been questionable, i believe that he hasnt been given enough resources to clear up the mess that Houllier left behind.

Imagine one day you're in valencia training with aimar, baraja and vicente and the next you're in liverpool with diouf diao and cheyrou.

He needed more money and he needed it quicker.

[Parm]

We were given a lesson in pass and move football - something that was the hallmark of liverpool fc. Valencia were just fantastic and we couldnt get near them.

I think you have to realise that when benitez first came to us he had a massive job to do. In effect bar 3 or 4 players he had to replace the entire first team with players of his type of quality with a £20m budget. In addition our first choice striker left.

He has tried to do this in stages and even though some of his buys have been questionable, i believe that he hasnt been given enough resources to clear up the mess that Houllier left behind.

Imagine one day you're in valencia training with aimar, baraja and vicente and the next you're in liverpool with diouf diao and cheyrou.
He needed more money and he needed it quicker.

that is one way of looking at it!

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

We were given a lesson in pass and move football - something that was the hallmark of liverpool fc. Valencia were just fantastic and we couldnt get near them.

I think you have to realise that when benitez first came to us he had a massive job to do. In effect bar 3 or 4 players he had to replace the entire first team with players of his type of quality with a £20m budget. In addition our first choice striker left.

He has tried to do this in stages and even though some of his buys have been questionable, i believe that he hasnt been given enough resources to clear up the mess that Houllier left behind.

Imagine one day you're in valencia training with aimar, baraja and vicente and the next you're in liverpool with diouf diao and cheyrou.

He needed more money and he needed it quicker.

I accept all of that.

But he knew the score regarding finances when he arrived.

Still he has done well getting rid of the wasters left behind by Houllier. Then again he's replaced them with some outright mediocrity, and I think it's stagnated our progress. And I'm afraid that's the fault of the manager and nobody else. He's still had a fair amount of money to spend though, and to be fair he's spent quite well. The only problem being that most of his attacking signings haven't been up to scratch. Hopefully Torres is the start of a seachange in this regard.

What really concerns me though is that we seem to have regressed back towards the Houllier hit and hope style in recent times. The question is why and what caused it? Blaming the form of certain players and certain players being missing is starting to wear thin with me. Too me it's deeper rooted than that.

[Frank Leroux]

I posted this in the 'The Benitez Thread' thread...

....I'd propose - and therefore agree with Charlie - that Benitez's pragmatic, chess-like cautious view of the game will not win a competition like the Premiership.

Stats warning!

Now, there are two big assumptions dropped in there. One is that caution won't win the Premier League. Looking at the stats (I know, I know) you generally needed to have scored more than 70 goals (there are a few exceptions) to win the title. Can 'goal-scoring' and 'caution' go hand in hand?

The second big assumption is that you prescribe to the idea that our manager is cautious. For his three years at Valencia his goals for column reads 51, 56, 71 - goals against - 27, 35, 27. His three full seasons with us: for - 52, 57, 57; against - 41, 25, 27. I'm seeing a trend here. His focus appears to be on defence. Lock-out the opposition. Goal scoring are not his team's forte (does he understand strikers?). And btw, look at the Valencia goals for: 51, 56, 71. Where this Valencia side as 'free-flowing' as we like to think? And in all sincerety, if anyone in the know can tell me why/how they scored 71 goals in his final season with them as opposed to the previous two I would love to be educated.

So, question is - do you think Benitez has a fundamental philosophy as to how the game is best played to achieve victory? Do you think it even matters? If you do, what do you think his philosophy is? Do you think it exports to different leagues? Do you think he can change it if need be?

I don't intend the above to appear as a rave against the manger - simply a reasoning I 've come to as to why I hold the view I do. I want us to win the league. I want Benitez to win it for us. I don't think he will......

I think we need to be careful about what we know/remember about Benitez's Valencia. Yes, they wiped the floor with us that night. But within the La Liga environment I thought they were generally understood to be a difficult side to play against rather than 'pretty'?

P.s., regarding my question above as to why, in his third season, Valencia scored so many more goals, AFII suggested Mista had a once-off season scoring a huge (for him) number of goals...

[el matador]

I accept all of that.

But he knew the score regarding finances when he arrived.

Still he has done well getting rid of the wasters left behind by Houllier. Then again he's replaced them with some outright mediocrity, and I think it's stagnated our progress. And I'm afraid that's the fault of the manager and nobody else. He's still had a fair amount of money to spend though, and to be fair he's spent quite well. The only problem being that most of his attacking signings haven't been up to scratch. Hopefully Torres is the start of a seachange in this regard.

What really concerns me though is that we seem to have regressed back towards the Houllier hit and hope style in recent times. The question is why and what caused it? Blaming the form of certain players and certain players being missing is starting to wear thin with me. Too me it's deeper rooted than that.

When rafa first joined us I thought that we would play in a similar style to valencia but it hasnt really happened. What's clear is that we dont have enough quality footballers in the side for that to happen.

Rafa was lucky in that when he went to valencia they were already a very good team with a lot of decent players. He changed their style of play and the players responded in the right way. They went on to have the most successful period in their history.

He did not inherit a decent team at liverpool and bar carragher, gerrard, hyypia, finnan and hamann the rest were pretty poor. He has had to build an almost entire 1st team and then the squad from scratch on a meagre budget. You have to realise that Benitez has raised most of the money that he has spent with really good runs in the champions league.

He took on a tough job and it is still a tough job. Once agger, alonso and aurelio are introduced into the team im sure we'll play better football.

[pezzzer]

i dont think we will see the best of the team until next season tbh

theres been some big squad changes since last jan and proberbly again this jan too
players like crouchy, riise,kewell, hypia,pennant and possibly finnan are either too old, not good enough or dont fit in to the rotating system.

all the players need time to settle in, with more wholesale changes to be made i cant see it happening this year but **** me, when it clicks it will really click.

[badpiggy]

i dont think we will see the best of the team until next season tbh

theres been some big squad changes since last jan and proberbly again this jan too
players like crouchy, riise,kewell, hypia,pennant and possibly finnan are either too old, not good enough or dont fit in to the rotating system.

all the players need time to settle in, with more wholesale changes to be made i cant see it happening this year but **** me, when it clicks it will really click.

do people reckon that rafa is in it for the long haul? would he be willing to stay with us for a wenger/ferguson length of time as long as we challenge for and win the league regularly?

[rushscored4]

do people reckon that rafa is in it for the long haul? would he be willing to stay with us for a wenger/ferguson length of time as long as we challenge for and win the league regularly?

Personally I don't think he'll be in charge when we move to the new stadium. I can see him heading back to Spain, probably at his beloved Madrid, in the next couple of years.

[badpiggy]

Personally I don't think he'll be in charge when we move to the new stadium. I can see him heading back to Spain, probably at his beloved Madrid, in the next couple of years.

wow - jumping though, not pushed?

[El Jefecito]

Personally I don't think he'll be in charge when we move to the new stadium. I can see him heading back to Spain, probably at his beloved Madrid, in the next couple of years.

As stubborn as he is, can you see him leaving without an EPL title?

[AFII]

The big difference between his Valencia side and our side now is that he had a ball playing second striker in Aimar and he now use a ball winning second striker in Kuyt or Voronin.

Aimar at that time was one of the best players in the world.

[pezzzer]

rafa will be with lfc till he retires, we will regain our status as the best club in the world.

we have already got the best supporters, the best stadium is on the way and the rest rafa me old chum, is up to you!