Lots of negative stuff about Rafa

[badpiggy]

Mate the problem is two fold, the manic depressives refuse to understand the answers given and that they seem to beonly analyzing the situation from an emotional perspective.

I've seen sound reasoning from both sides? How comes you can only see one side.

fair enough - bit of an exagerration on my part.

still think that in general the concerned fans worries are more clearly laid out than the more happy clappy types.

my concerns would be about
1. rafa's negativity (always worry about who the next team is and how to negate them first)
2. the possibility that he is not great at man-management (his treatment of crouch and the wholerotation system - can players really slot into the machine like automatons when it's demanded)
3. his love of hard work above the less predictable flair and inspiration(garcia and now benayoun are his concessions to this but only in certain circumstances...was aimar at valencia the same?)
4. how incredibly static we are off the ball - hold shape at the cost of everything
5. players like masher being amazing for their country and very negative for us - that is definitely coached
6. SG - i genuinely believe rafa would be happier without him. that level of unpredictability and explosive all action style is something he loves to try and negate in the opposition but seems uncomfortable with in his own team.

now in general there are serious positive sides to these concerns but based on the ****e football we are playing - which a lot of the time seems to be about giving away possesion all the time - the negative aspects to these ideas are in the forefront of my mind. and yes we won in istanbul (i don't credit rafa with too much there though...) and went to another final last year and the FA cup the year before and rafa will get it right and give him time - yes yes yes to all this but the way we approach games in the premiership is the overarching concern. negating stylish teams in europe is one thing - but everyone in the premiership does that - we just do it with more expensive players.

[El Jefecito]

fair enough - bit of an exagerration on my part.

still think that in general the concerned fans worries are more clearly laid out than the more happy clappy types.

Maybe, let me try to address and hope the other 'Superfans' can augment.

my concerns would be about
1. rafa's negativity (always worry about who the next team is and how to negate them first)

I watched Milan in the 80/90s and they weren't about negativity they were about balance and control. The best chance of winning a game is threefold.

1/ Negate the oppostions strengths.
2/ Exploit their weaknesses.
3/ Mazimize your strengths.

We've looked bad the last couple of games because we have only achieved 1/ with any degree of strength. But if you look at us over the last couple of years you can see that we have been trying to achieve all three.

I agree, that if we are only successful at 1/ that we will look like a negative team. Go back to the Derby and the CL qualifier game though, in those ones we achieved all three. With our players back I think you will see more of that.


2. the possibility that he is not great at man-management (his treatment of crouch and the wholerotation system - can players really slot into the machine like automatons when it's demanded)

Agree his man management is not good, I think that is why Alex Miller is doing all that now.

There is a reason for this though. Rafa would prefer players who are mentally strong. I think he see's players who need molly coddling as weaklings e.g. SG.

Hopefully, Miller can address this.

3. his love of hard work above the less predictable flair and inspiration(garcia and now benayoun are his concessions to this but only in certain circumstances...was aimar at valencia the same?)
Rafa has not had many flair players to this point, but I think the way that he handled Aimar and Vicente proves that he can. I think his OVERALL philosphy depends on the team as a whole. We are largely not falir players so he is setting up like that. Given a couple of transfer windows we may well be in a position to 'express ourselves' vs. playing to the very rigid structure.

But I must admit I like the idea of specific roles, as long as they are not too restricted I think it maximizes the value that we can get out of the squad, as they can be very focused on what they need to do.


4. how incredibly static we are off the ball - hold shape at the cost of everything

To me that is a function of the players that we have. Our fluidity has improved with the inclusion of players like Torres, Ben Onion and Babel. When we are playing well you see any and all of them + Kuyt and Voronin, swapping positions. I do still think that they need to work on the runs that they make and their partners need to be aware of them to ensure that they can feed them in the right place at the right time. This will come in time though.

5. players like masher being amazing for their country and very negative for us - that is definitely coached

TBH El Jefecito is not that negative, when he plays with Alonso, he is like the player that plays for Argentina. With others he is, like you say, more a screener of the back 4, a destroyer almost. I've seen improvements from himin this role though. Assuming, Momo does not become the new SG, I think that Xabi+El Jefecito and Lucas+El Jefecito will get the best out of Mascher.


6. SG - i genuinely believe rafa would be happier without him. that level of unpredictability and explosive all action style is something he loves to try and negate in the opposition but seems uncomfortable with in his own team.
I agree. Rafa looks for continued control. SG is an impact player. SG is an enigma, and I don't know where he will end up in Rafa's thinking. The 433 we played recently, looks to get the most out of all of our CM's. Maybe that is the way forward. Who knows?

now in general there are serious positive sides to these concerns but based on the ****e football we are playing - which a lot of the time seems to be about giving away possesion all the time - the negative aspects to these ideas are in the forefront of my mind. and yes we won in istanbul (i don't credit rafa with too much there though...) and went to another final last year and the FA cup the year before and rafa will get it right and give him time - yes yes yes to all this but the way we approach games in the premiership is the overarching concern. negating stylish teams in europe is one thing - but everyone in the premiership does that - we just do it with more expensive players.

Hopefully, that convinces you we are not all RCDNW, and that we do have real reasons to be positive

[badpiggy]

Hopefully, that convinces you we are not all RCDNW, and that we do have real reasons to be positive

without being patronising i really appreciate the fact that you took time to compose a coherent and well thought out answer which gives me something to think about. i really hope you're right about your first point and that all of a sudden - or gradually - we will click into a team that does mors than break up the play. the one concern that remains unaddressed is our poor movement off the ball. this whole idea of us moving forward and back maintaining a rigid shape seems crazy. but then i guess so does zonal marking and that seems to work ridiculously well...

[friedk]

By way of comparison

Ferguson
86/87 - 11th
87/88 - 2nd
88/89 - 11th
89/90 - 13th - FA Cup
90/91 - 6th - Cup Winners Cup
91/92 - 2nd - League Cup
92/93 - Champions

In the 4 seasons before Ferguson's arrival, United finished 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th. Ferguson brought a history of success with him to United and the board obviously felt that by sticking with him, eventually he would bring that success to United. The result is that he ushered in the club's most successful era ever.

In the 4 seasons before Rafa's arrival, Liverpool finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th.

Benitez
04/05 - 5th - European Cup
05/06 - 3rd - FA Cup
06/07 -3rd

Benitez brought a history of success with him to Liverpool, but according to some he has had more than sufficient time to implement his ideas, totally rehaul the team, adapt to a new league, revamp the youth set up and recreate the era of Paisley. Besides the poxy return of a European Cup, FA Cup, European Cup Final and League Cup Final, he has apparently run out of time and unless we win the league we should get rid of him.

The scum, who had gone even longer than we have without winning the league, stuck by Ferguson for 7 seasons before he won it.

Some people however know that after less than 4 seasons Rafa can never do it.

Tonight is Rafa's 50th European Cup game at Liverpool, in that time we have won it once and been to the final once.

Today is Ferguson's 21st Anniversary at United, and he has yet to match Rafa's achievement in Europe.

Get a ****ing grip!

[einar]

By way of comparison

Ferguson
86/87 - 11th
87/88 - 2nd
88/89 - 11th
89/90 - 13th - FA Cup
90/91 - 6th - Cup Winners Cup
91/92 - 2nd - League Cup
92/93 - Champions

In the 4 seasons before Ferguson's arrival, United finished 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th. Ferguson brought a history of success with him to United and the board obviously felt that by sticking with him, eventually he would bring that success to United. The result is that he ushered in the club's most successful era ever.

In the 4 seasons before Rafa's arrival, Liverpool finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th.

Benitez
04/05 - 5th - European Cup
05/06 - 3rd - FA Cup
06/07 -3rd

Benitez brought a history of success with him to Liverpool, but according to some he has had more than sufficient time to implement his ideas, totally rehaul the team, adapt to a new league, revamp the youth set up and recreate the era of Paisley. Besides the poxy return of a European Cup, FA Cup, European Cup Final and League Cup Final, he has apparently run out of time and unless we win the league we should get rid of him.

The scum, who had gone even longer than we have without winning the league, stuck by Ferguson for 7 seasons before he won it.

Some people however know that after less than 4 seasons Rafa can never do it.

Tonight is Rafa's 50th European Cup game at Liverpool, in that time we have won it once and been to the final once.

Today is Ferguson's 21st Anniversary at United, and he has yet to match Rafa's achievement in Europe.

Get a ****ing grip!

You can marry my daughter anytime.

[Pacman]

By way of comparison

Ferguson
86/87 - 11th
87/88 - 2nd
88/89 - 11th
89/90 - 13th - FA Cup
90/91 - 6th - Cup Winners Cup
91/92 - 2nd - League Cup
92/93 - Champions

In the 4 seasons before Ferguson's arrival, United finished 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th. Ferguson brought a history of success with him to United and the board obviously felt that by sticking with him, eventually he would bring that success to United. The result is that he ushered in the club's most successful era ever.

In the 4 seasons before Rafa's arrival, Liverpool finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th.

Benitez
04/05 - 5th - European Cup
05/06 - 3rd - FA Cup
06/07 -3rd

Benitez brought a history of success with him to Liverpool, but according to some he has had more than sufficient time to implement his ideas, totally rehaul the team, adapt to a new league, revamp the youth set up and recreate the era of Paisley. Besides the poxy return of a European Cup, FA Cup, European Cup Final and League Cup Final, he has apparently run out of time and unless we win the league we should get rid of him.

The scum, who had gone even longer than we have without winning the league, stuck by Ferguson for 7 seasons before he won it.

Some people however know that after less than 4 seasons Rafa can never do it.

Tonight is Rafa's 50th European Cup game at Liverpool, in that time we have won it once and been to the final once.

Today is Ferguson's 21st Anniversary at United, and he has yet to match Rafa's achievement in Europe.

Get a ****ing grip!

Great ****ing post mate

[FT9]

:whatever:

[Iceman]

^ Bump

I just thought the Doom & Gloom merchants might like to re-read what they posted on Saturday night

[Red_Polo]

cause we have done for the past 3 years

Have we ****

[Fiddy]

^ Bump

I just thought the Doom & Gloom merchants might like to re-read what they posted on Saturday night

I was thinking of the miserable ***** when we went 4 up...then how I laughed as the other goals went in and we just continued to smash them, **** Arsenal when we can play like that!

How stupid some people must be feeling right now eh?!

[Johnny]

are they really that bad???

we are unbeaten in the league.

we are still in the carling cup.

we are still in the fa cup.

we are still in the champions league.

so to sum it up every tournament we have entered we can still win

poor results in certain games - fair enough - due to ?????

1. sami hypia playing due to an injury to a soon to be world class defender AGGER. agger is badly missed and we cant play the way rafa wants us to due to sami's pace - or lack of.

2. poor finishing by sub standard strikers. if rafa had a choice would he be playing kuyt + veronin week in week out?? would he ****

3. injuries. torres, agger, alonso - massive players for us and badly missed and very unlucky to have them out at the same time.

4. teams constantly shutting up shop against us for 90 mins.

so to sum it up........

we have managed to stay in touch in the league.
we will win our last 3 games in the champions league to qualify.
we will beat chelsea in their little home in the carling cup.
we will kick the **** out of whoever we get in the fa cup.

ok - i dont think we can win them all . will settle for an fa cup and league double this year.

who can lead us to this???? RAFA ****IN BENITEZ

YNWA REDMEN

Check out RS4`s post that becamne my SIG!!!!!!!

[paulcooper4]

Rafa Out?

I'm going to bite the bullet.

I love Rafa for winning no.5.

I love him for the F.A Cup.

I love him for the beard.

But.....we are playing ****e football and there is no way we can win the league while playing like that that.

Are we going to win with Rafa?

tit:bird:

[Johnny]

tit:bird:

Hi BrightRed,How deep is your throat????

[paulcooper4]

Hi BrightRed,How deep is your throat????

I hope that ****in bullet he bites explodes

[Johnny]

I hope that ****in bullet he bites explodes

Lead poisoning???????