Controversial LFC thread.

[Howard_lfc]

the lad is an absolute diamond. if we want a pass and move team then we need to snap up every player like masher we can find. i'd happily pay 17m for him.

Pass and move Al?

You're talking about the wrong player because so far this season his passing has been dreadful.

People can dress it up any way they like but to me - the holding midfield player is the easiest position on the field. So long as you can tackle and read the game you're sorted. I agree with a previous poster (einar?) who said that there are probably players out there who can do the job just as effectively but wouldn't cost anywhere near £17m.

[dww]

Pass and move Al?

You're talking about the wrong player because so far this season his passing has been dreadful.

People can dress it up any way they like but to me - the holding midfield player is the easiest position on the field. So long as you can tackle and read the game you're sorted. I agree with a previous poster (einar?) who said that there are probably players out there who can do the job just as effectively but wouldn't cost anywhere near £17m.

I would disagree with that actually - a good specialist holding player is nearly as rare as a top class goalscorer these days. It is not just about the breaking down of play but the positioning to always give an out ball to the defense and the skill to retain possession when needed added to the ability to slickly move the ball to start attacks.

I fully agree with your assessment of his form earlier in the season (at the time when I posted about it I seemed to be almost alone in this point of view). However last season and in the last three games his short passing has been crisp, fast and accurate. I think that as a team we were lacking in movement and confidence and it told on him. Hopefully with experience he will learn to be more solid in the previous circumstances but I really struggle to think of anyone with the potential to be as good as his is now let alone the fact he is young enough to improve (especially in the mental areas of the game).

[Howard_lfc]

I would disagree with that actually - a good specialist holding player is nearly as rare as a top class goalscorer these days. It is not just about the breaking down of play but the positioning to always give an out ball to the defense and the skill to retain possession when needed added to the ability to slickly move the ball to start attacks.
I fully agree with your assessment of his form earlier in the season (at the time when I posted about it I seemed to be almost alone in this point of view). However last season and in the last three games his short passing has been crisp, fast and accurate. I think that as a team we were lacking in movement and confidence and it told on him. Hopefully with experience he will learn to be more solid in the previous circumstances but I really struggle to think of anyone with the potential to be as good as his is now let alone the fact he is young enough to improve (especially in the mental areas of the game).

Isn't that just the very basics of playing football though? Winning the ball, being ready/able to receive passes and then moving the ball to a team-mate.
That isn't difficult if you're fit and can read the game. Don't forget - the odds are that there won't be a man on the holding midfielder so he has more time to do his stuff. (NB I know Rafa put Garcia on Makelele in the Carling Cup final).

[dww]

Isn't that just the very basics of playing football though? Winning the ball, being ready/able to receive passes and then moving the ball to a team-mate.
That isn't difficult if you're fit and can read the game. Don't forget - the odds are that there won't be a man on the holding midfielder so he has more time to do his stuff. (NB I know Rafa put Garcia on Makelele in the Carling Cup final).

But holding players will usually receive the when the team is under pressure and the space to be open to receive it is limited, especially considering the people who will most likely be trying to find them are defenders who are usually the worst passers in a team.

It is about relatively basic skills but certain ones have to be highly honed, and it requires probably the greatest amount of awareness of those around you of any position. The aim is to prevent you playing long balls out of defense even in a lot of pressure which requires you to take the ball in risky areas and get it out again quickly which is ultimately one of the bigeest problems all teams face - how to quickly turn defense into attack.

I also think that people did deliberately target Mascher at the start of the season as the DM is usually the start points for attacks. This is a phenomena which is only likely to happen against the much lesser teams in general but that is about 50% or more of the games we will play in the PL. I thought he handled it quite badly at first but he has improved and despite Fulham often having a man harry him specifically he put in a excellent performance IMO.

[enema of the state]

Years ago we had JB and Redknapp in midfield and neither of them really fancied the rough stuff. Paul Ince was brought in but he didn't have the passing ability and his effect on the team's play was detrimental. Mascher is exactly the type of player we needed then and which we haven't really had since Souness. (Before anyone says anything I know Steve McMahon was a great player for us but there is a gap in quality between him and the other two.)

between which 2????

mcmahon at his peak was at least as good as redknapp or ince and barnes was never ever as good a CM as macca.

souness stands above all of that list but ive never seen ANYTHING from mascherano that makes me think he has the potential to achieve what soey did.

if someone could guarantee me that mascherano would give us equivalent service to the 5 years mcmahon gave us between 1985-1990 the £17Million would be an absolute bargain

anyone who thinks mcmahon was a mere holding player is an idiot - the fella scored a barrowload of goals with runs from deep and shots from distance - mascher hasnt got anything like that in his locker

[enema of the state]

Damn. It wasn't as controversial as I thought !!

Some good points made but nothing so far has changed my mind. Spending close to £17m on a holding midfielder when we already have Stevie, Xabi, Lucas and (possibly) Momo makes no sense to me. The money could be used better to strengthen the wide area's and up front IMO.

I'm aware the amounts of money paid for Carrick, Hargreaves, Obi Mikel, Essien and Makalele but we simply don't have the reserves of cash that they have so to we have to be smarter with our signings.

i would agree with you howard

i think sissoko is a decent holding MF and i also think carragher might be effective in that role (where he 1st came into the side). If theres £17m to be spent, the team would improve more of its spent on a world class centreback or winger.

dont get me wrong, id PREFER mascherano to momo but at that price, with all the alternatives we have, i dont think its great business

[Red Chilli]

Pass and move Al?

You're talking about the wrong player because so far this season his passing has been dreadful.
.

Totally agree

[enema of the state]

the holding midfield player is the easiest position on the field..

is exactly right

otherwise phil neville wouldnt be able to play that position

[Red Chilli]

between which 2????

mcmahon at his peak was at least as good as redknapp or ince and barnes was never ever as good a CM as macca.

souness stands above all of that list but ive never seen ANYTHING from mascherano that makes me think he has the potential to achieve what soey did.

if someone could guarantee me that mascherano would give us equivalent service to the 5 years mcmahon gave us between 1985-1990 the £17Million would be an absolute bargain

anyone who thinks mcmahon was a mere holding player is an idiot - the fella scored a barrowload of goals with runs from deep and shots from distance - mascher hasnt got anything like that in his locker

Can't believe how under rated McMahon seems to be these days. He was a world class midfielder for us.

[El Jefecito]

i would agree with you howard

i think sissoko is a decent holding MF and i also think carragher might be effective in that role (where he 1st came into the side). If theres £17m to be spent, the team would improve more of its spent on a world class centreback or winger.

dont get me wrong, id PREFER mascherano to momo but at that price, with all the alternatives we have, i dont think its great business

Momo is no holding midfielder. He's a poor attacking midfielder. Rafa has always played him in front of Xabi / El Jefecito.

Maybe it's semantics, but his game is very different to, for example Makele or El Jefecito.

[tomasjj]

i would agree with you howard

i think sissoko is a decent holding MF and i also think carragher might be effective in that role (where he 1st came into the side). If theres £17m to be spent, the team would improve more of its spent on a world class centreback or winger.

dont get me wrong, id PREFER mascherano to momo but at that price, with all the alternatives we have, i dont think its great business

I think he is nothing like a holding midfielder, to be honest. He is just a ball winner, but not the disciplined positionally sound ball winner who also can help bring the ball out of defense.

[enema of the state]

But holding players will usually receive the when the team is under pressure and the space to be open to receive it is limited, especially considering the people who will most likely be trying to find them are defenders who are usually the worst passers in a team.

It is about relatively basic skills but certain ones have to be highly honed, and it requires probably the greatest amount of awareness of those around you of any position. The aim is to prevent you playing long balls out of defense even in a lot of pressure which requires you to take the ball in risky areas and get it out again quickly which is ultimately one of the bigeest problems all teams face - how to quickly turn defense into attack.

I also think that people did deliberately target Mascher at the start of the season as the DM is usually the start points for attacks. This is a phenomena which is only likely to happen against the much lesser teams in general but that is about 50% or more of the games we will play in the PL. I thought he handled it quite badly at first but he has improved and despite Fulham often having a man harry him specifically he put in a excellent performance IMO.

sorry mate this is just way off the mark

holding MF is the technically least demanding position in football and the most forgiving in terms of errors since theres always 2 centre backs behind

the position requiring the greates awareness is centre half

your point about turning defence into attack is a good one but its a rare rare holding player that does that. i dont think masher does it for us , nor makelele for chavski, nor hargreaves for the scum.

you really need to go back to viera to identify a holding player who really did what you describe. the key link between defence and attack is the ability of the centrebacks to move the ball out of defence and pass. or best buil-ups actually tend to bypass mascherano.

[barnes10]

mascherano is the closest thing this league has to a 'new roy keane' with the added bonus that he isnt a scumbag of a person.

17mill is bargain. 17mill is the minimum nowadays for the quality he has regardless of what position he plays is in the team.

[enema of the state]

I think he is nothing like a holding midfielder, to be honest. He is just a ball winner, but not the disciplined positionally sound ball winner who also can help bring the ball out of defense.

hes a young kid - i agree he doesnt have the positional discipline of masch but hes a holding midfielder nothing more or less. his strengths are speed and tackling.

[El Jefecito]

sorry mate this is just way off the mark

holding MF is the technically least demanding position in football and the most forgiving in terms of errors since theres always 2 centre backs behind

the position requiring the greates awareness is centre half

your point about turning defence into attack is a good one but its a rare rare holding player that does that. i dont think masher does it for us , nor makelele for chavski, nor hargreaves for the scum.

you really need to go back to viera to identify a holding player who really did what you describe. the key link between defence and attack is the ability of the centrebacks to move the ball out of defence and pass. or best buil-ups actually tend to bypass mascherano.

Viera is not a holding midfielder he was box-box like Souness and Lucas.