The Bootroom - No Speculative Tosh

[Nicey]

Recently the sheer amount of speculative ****e that has been awash on these boards has been a little overwhelming. Personally I am only interested in talking football, tactics, players strengths etc. I thought perhaps we could have a thread just for hardcore football discussion. No jokes, no speculation, no abuse just a exchange on our team and others in the Prem. Being the lazy ******* that I am and I have taken the liberty to copy and paste Alexjamestodd’s great first post on partnerships to kick us off.

My first post so bare with me

One thing that is holding us back from winning the league , i believe , is the amount of goals scored compared to chances made.
I remember when rafa joined and there were games that wed have 20 odd shots on goal but may only score one ( the impressive thing is how we dominated). The system 4231 is very effective and does allow alot of possession and created chances when the players are on form ( Id just like to add tha Rafa is very focused on chances created rather than match outcomes)

The problem then is that when you are creating all these chances - you must have at least two very good strikers. Until Torres arrival (I have been amased at how good he is , class and attitude . I didnt believe that he was as a complete player as he appears to be - yes he was expensive but surely as good as any other world class striker) we didnt have any. Crouch is a player that has improved greatly since his arrival at liverpool and while not being world class - he is very effective and is good in the lone striker role of the 4231 (4231 is essentially 442 just with wide advanced wingers and one striker dropping a bit deep . I have always said that it is just a variation of 442. When gerrard and mascher play it is even a 41131.) Kuyt has a great attitude , a good work rate but is not world class - id keep him tho . Vorinin is an okay play but not world class.

So apart from the lack of world class strikers, the real problem i believe is this ~

PARTNERSHIPS

throughout soccer history there have been great striking partnerships - maybe one scored more than the other but he could not have done it without the other. Owen /heskey Shearer/sutton (not great partnerships but very goo ones)

Two strikers that play together reguarly will develop a sixth sense understanding that will increase there chances of dominating defences and scoring goals .

Therefore i believe that our strikers are not being utilised properly.

The partnerships ibelive are most effective are . torres/kuyt crouch/voronin

these combinations work for us and if used more often will bring us more goals.

a any other combos just dont work -

any team that has kuyt as a lone striker will not score many goals - he is best working behind the main man as the centre of the 3.

a kuyt / voronin partnership is bottom of the table stuff and would not bring silverware .

Crouch/voronin would work because ibelieve that there styles of play would compliment each other nicely.

MIDFIELD PARTNERSHIPS

The same sixthsense applies here - gerrard/mascher is a great combo that compliments well and i believe that xavi /levia would ork nicely also .

So the point im trying to get at is this - rotation is good and it works but change partnerships for games ie torres/kuyt midweek - crouch/voronin at the weekend

those partnerships could win us the league - gerrard/mascher >> keane/scholes

So a decent winger , a decent centre back and we are almost there

p.s kewell looks exceptionally good at the top of his game
pps levia a nd babel are great buys
ppps RAFA MUST STAY
pppps the first 20 against porto when we had wingers wide and looking for the ball was fantastic to watch

Thanks


I have to agree with nearly everything Alex says here, I am wondering if its accurate in terms our current set up. Does Rafa use different Partnerships rather than just straight forward player rotation. I know at the beginning of the season he used every striker with Torres, personally other than Torres Voronin is the cleverest player up front and I would like to see him partner more with El Ninio

Lets keep it to Football folks

[carrsim]

when crouch plays we hold the ball so much better- as demonstrated when he came on the other night.

While both him and torres are comfortable with the ball at their feet, the option of going longer really made a difference to the game (IMO)

some will argue that his lack of mobility compared to DK and AV is the issue and that may be accurate to a point.

It could be that the players get "lazy" and bypass midfield too often with him on the pitch, but that is haedly his fault- and should be correctable from instruction.

However, i feel that his overall link play, the option of being able to go long and most importantly, his goal threat means that for me he deserves more chances to strike that partnership with torres.

It seems unlikely to happen and I feel it is one of the few things that you could question rafa about (the other is putting all his central defensive cover eggs in the heinze basket)

i'm not sure that we'll ever see again the likes of kenny and rush or beardsley and aldo in terms of true partnerships.

[Nicey]

Yeah there seems to be a shift away from the classic striking partnership philosophy and I think it coincided with the emergence of the new form of formation football the 451 dressed up as 433 a few seasons back. the emphasis seems to have shifted from the 2nd striker and more to the attacking mid fielder .

As for crouchy, I love the guy. I am happy to see his name on the team sheet, always have been. Was a little surprised when he first started to get linked to us, thought myself surely not. But his record at his last club and ours stands up to scrutiny. He looks very difficult to get off the ball for such a gangly lad and his distribution for me anyways is excellent. Two areas I would like to see him improve, ironically the first is Heading ability. Not sure if it was just a bad patch or he is genuinely lacking in this department but for awhile his heading was just non existence. Secondly though I not sure you can couch this aspect of the footballers game is match intelligence, he does not make enough clever moves for me, not saying he totally void of clever decisions just that he has room to make more. Since Torres has come its not only his clinical eye for goal, his physical prowess but also his very clever decisions, runs, through pass's Just a joy to watch and I would imagine a releive to play with.

[thekop]

when crouch plays we hold the ball so much better- as demonstrated when he came on the other night.

While both him and torres are comfortable with the ball at their feet, the option of going longer really made a difference to the game (IMO)

some will argue that his lack of mobility compared to DK and AV is the issue and that may be accurate to a point.

It could be that the players get "lazy" and bypass midfield too often with him on the pitch, but that is haedly his fault- and should be correctable from instruction.

However, i feel that his overall link play, the option of being able to go long and most importantly, his goal threat means that for me he deserves more chances to strike that partnership with torres.

It seems unlikely to happen and I feel it is one of the few things that you could question rafa about (the other is putting all his central defensive cover eggs in the heinze basket)

i'm not sure that we'll ever see again the likes of kenny and rush or beardsley and aldo in terms of true partnerships.

He made the difference when he came on as did Kewell

[carrsim]

Yeah there seems to be a shift away from the classic striking partnership philosophy and I think it coincided with the emergence of the new form of formation football the 451 dressed up as 433 a few seasons back. the emphasis seems to have shifted from the 2nd striker and more to the attacking mid fielder .

As for crouchy, I love the guy. I am happy to see his name on the team sheet, always have been. Was a little surprised when he first started to get linked to us, thought myself surely not. But his record at his last club and ours stands up to scrutiny. He looks very difficult to get off the ball for such a gangly lad and his distribution for me anyways is excellent. Two areas I would like to see him improve, ironically the first is Heading ability. Not sure if it was just a bad patch or he is genuinely lacking in this department but for awhile his heading was just non existence. Secondly though I not sure you can couch this aspect of the footballers game is match intelligence, he does not make enough clever moves for me, not saying he totally void of clever decisions just that he has room to make more. Since Torres has come its not only his clinical eye for goal, his physical prowess but also his very clever decisions, runs, through pass's Just a joy to watch and I would imagine a releive to play with.

wow proper football discussion- nice change.
i agree his heading- especially at goal- is quite poor.

I also agree that "natural" strikers tend to make the runs to find space when there seemingly isn't any (and i can't think of many better than fowler)

crouch's run to the near post in his arsenal hattrick was an example that he CAN do it, but whether its his instinct to do it, or whether he takes a split second to think about it (which of course makes all the difference) is the issue.

but as i said, he has enough other kwalateez to make up for it- his abilty to bring other attackers into the game for one.

and yes kewell also made a big difference

[Shaggy]

when crouch plays we hold the ball so much better- as demonstrated when he came on the other night.

While both him and torres are comfortable with the ball at their feet, the option of going longer really made a difference to the game (IMO)

some will argue that his lack of mobility compared to DK and AV is the issue and that may be accurate to a point.

It could be that the players get "lazy" and bypass midfield too often with him on the pitch, but that is haedly his fault- and should be correctable from instruction.

However, i feel that his overall link play, the option of being able to go long and most importantly, his goal threat means that for me he deserves more chances to strike that partnership with torres.

It seems unlikely to happen and I feel it is one of the few things that you could question rafa about (the other is putting all his central defensive cover eggs in the heinze basket)

i'm not sure that we'll ever see again the likes of kenny and rush or beardsley and aldo in terms of true partnerships.

[carlton]

Torres has got so much upside its scary. Over the first 5 metres he is second to none and he gets into scoring positions that others dont. I feel though that we need another world class striker cos when Torres is out if the team we lack potency. Kuyt will run all day for you and Voronin is alot better than I thought but long term they are not the answers. Crouch is worth keeping imo. Torres is only 23 and if we could add a finisher like Anelka or Eto we would dominate. Kewell also adds so much class and skill when he's fit it makes me sad that injury has blighted him. I wish he was 5 years younger

[Darth Marty]

I still feel that the Torres/Crouch partnership could be a great one, it hasnt been given a chance at all as yet. Coupled with Harrys return I genuinely think thats the future.
I agree that we need another world class striker to give Torres a rest/cover injuries etc but I am at a loss as to who. Id go for Eto'o, Villa but maybe surprisingly my first pick is Huntelaar. I have been very impressed with him and combined with Torres qualities I think these two could wreak havoc.

[The_weatherman]

A good post. But I think partnerships are important all over the pitch. Upfront are the most talked about and obvious partnerships. I think Rafa is thinking the partnerships differently though.

We have Torres and Crouch on one hand and Kuyt and Voronin on the other. I think Rafa set up with Torres or Crouch usually pairing with Kuyt or Voronin. Kuyt and Voronin are pretty similar and although Crouch and Torres are not exactly like they offer similar options IMO, can hold the ball and link play well and have good technique (Torres just has pretty much everything).

Yossi and Arebeloa also ave the makings of decent partnership and Finnan and Pennant. I feel we lack a decent combo on the left though. Maybe when Kewell comes back he could form a partnership with Aurelio?

[Woobus]

I still feel that the Torres/Crouch partnership could be a great one, it hasnt been given a chance at all as yet.

I am sure Rafa has tested it out in training many times, would be good if they did form a partnership as definately our best two strikers.

[Exiled_red]

I think that our best front two has to be Torres and Crouch.

I think Crouch is really under-valued by many people he has good touch, control and skill which no-one appreciates, also just his presence in the box draws defenders to him leaving space for others to play in. Torres and Crouch have pace and height meaning defenders can't hold a high line or defend too deep or they will be vulnerable to one or the other.

While Kuyt has worked well with Torres at times, his work rate means that often he leaves Torres isolated as he's so deep, and I just don't see him as a goal threat he seems more of a midfielder than a striker. Voronin seems to be very hit and miss in his performances also and seems more of a support player

[Helios Creed]

I think that our best front two has to be Torres and Crouch.

I think Crouch is really under-valued by many people he has good touch, control and skill which no-one appreciates, also just his presence in the box draws defenders to him leaving space for others to play in. Torres and Crouch have pace and height meaning defenders can't hold a high line or defend too deep or they will be vulnerable to one or the other.

While Kuyt has worked well with Torres at times, his work rate means that often he leaves Torres isolated as he's so deep, and I just don't see him as a goal threat he seems more of a midfielder than a striker. Voronin seems to be very hit and miss in his performances also and seems more of a support player

I definitely agree that Torres would benefit from the distraction that Crouch provides and be able to exploit the resulting space and use his sharp brain to anticipate his flick ons, knock downs etc. Could be a great partnership if they get a chance to work at it.

The new Keegan/Toshack.

[dww]

I think Kuyt and Torres work very well together. Kuyt while less good at actually holding the ball up gets it back into play for other much more quickly than Crouch, he also pressurises and moves defenders around better and this created a lot of chances and space for Torres for example against Newcastle.

I also think that Torres and Crouch could do well together and certainly have done at the death of a few games recently. I think that between those three we have a lot of good partnerships and different options which offer a variety of methods of attack and alter the way we can play.

For me Voronin offers much the same as Kuyt but links worse with Torres and better with Crouch and has a modicum more pace. However I think he is less of a threat and more of a confidence player than Kuyt who always offers himself even when things are going against us. I still like Voronin and without us having Kuyt I would think he is a very good squad option as it is he would be the player I would sacrifice in future to bring in another forward with pace (I'd go for Anelka myself).

[tomasjj]

I think Kuyt and Torres work very well together. Kuyt while less good at actually holding the ball up gets it back into play for other much more quickly than Crouch, he also pressurises and moves defenders around better and this created a lot of chances and space for Torres for example against Newcastle.

These two points on Kuyt vs Crouch are spot on I think. Crouch does hold the ball up well, but he usually ends up dribbling backwards and then passing it backwards, hindering our attacking play.
Kuyts value in harassing and winning the ball back in advanced positions was very clear to see against Newcastle.

[Nicey]

Torres has got so much upside its scary. Over the first 5 metres he is second to none and he gets into scoring positions that others dont. I feel though that we need another world class striker cos when Torres is out if the team we lack potency. Kuyt will run all day for you and Voronin is alot better than I thought but long term they are not the answers. Crouch is worth keeping imo. Torres is only 23 and if we could add a finisher like Anelka or Eto we would dominate. Kewell also adds so much class and skill when he's fit it makes me sad that injury has blighted him. I wish he was 5 years younger

As much as it pains me to say it I perhaps tend to agree with you. That said Voronin has just joined so I am prepared to give him a lot more time. One thing is probably sure somebody possibly has to go and hopefully replaced with another Torres type signing. Not necessarily in Jan but next summer for sure.

But hey lets steer clear of transfer speculation and keep it to the footballers we have and how they play. I would interested to find out more about Kuyt and Voronins stats before they came here, what formation they played in and compare that to the system we currently play. I seem to remember a lot of Kuyt's goals being of the tap in variety but I also vaguely remember he had a better scoring record than Horseface in Holland that is