1st jan 2008

[Dhav]

its gotta be said fella your one of the few on here who,s posts i read and regularly agree with

be afraid

[Dhav]

My post above is perfectly sensible and states that if we cant make yesterday's result a rarity, we wont win the title.


I've been fairly tame with regards to yesterday's result.

And my last post, after the one you quoted, might be worth a read for you.

Apologies, I obviously didn't read your second post before posting mine, and perhaps I've been guilty of using your previous form when interpreting your original post. But the way you worded it made me think you were critical of the team/management for the loss, especially as you seem to be one of Rafa's most outspoken critics when he makes changes and we susbsequently drop points.

Personally I think yesterday was just one of those days. We could have played 4-4-2, not started with two holding midfielders, played with Sami instead of Hobbs and got at them down the flanks. In my mind that would have given us a greater prospect of success. But I think it was never going to be our day regardless. We fell behind to a ridiculous penalty decision (mark my words it would have been a hugely different game had we taken the lead), we could have easily had two of our own, and we hit the woodwork twice. Inspite of not being on our game we could have easliy got the three points. This is where I disagree with your original post - I'm not sure what more we could have done to avoid defeat.

[willa1975]

Personally I think yesterday was just one of those days. We could have played 4-4-2, not started with two holding midfielders, played with Sami instead of Hobbs and got at them down the flanks. In my mind that would have given us a greater prospect of success. But I think it was never going to be our day regardless. We fell behind to a ridiculous penalty decision (mark my words it would have been a hugely different game had we taken the lead), we could have easily had two of our own, and we hit the woodwork twice. Inspite of not being on our game we could have easliy got the three points. This is where I disagree with your original post - I'm not sure what more we could have done to avoid defeat.

Rafa didn't do much to avoid defeat. He picked a lousy side, period. You didn't even have to watch to know that we would struggle with that lineup. If we were to win, it would have come from individual efforts from the likes of Gerrard and Torres, and that's about it. Crouch was poor, although being played out of position didn't help, and Voronin didn't do much. Combine that with two DMs in a three-man midfield, and the increasingly useless Riise at LB, and the odds of us producing any decent football were rather low.

Now, I know that we have to play the likes of Momo, Riise, Voronin, etc., but don't put them all out together, or a display like yesterday's will be the inevitable result. Likewise, I understand the idea of playing two DMs, with the inexperienced Hobbs getting a start, but if you do, then don't play ****ing 4-3-3. It's not ****ing rocket science.

It also bothered me that Rafa took Torres off as soon as we went down 2-1. Considering that he and Gerrard were the only two players producing any real attacking threat, and that we still had a half hour to at least equalize, if not win the game, I cannot help but think that Rafa was content to take a loss at that point, which is unacceptable, seeing as we are now being separated from United and Chelsea in the league table. We could at least have gone down with a fight.

That being said, it was a bad day at the office. I'm not sure we would have won, given the refereeing decisions and just plain bad luck. But Rafa's team selection, formation and substitutions did nothing to help and, if we don't beat Marseille on Tuesday AND take three points against the Scum at Anfield this weekend, things will be looking a lot less rosy.

[Dhav]

Rafa didn't do much to avoid defeat. He picked a lousy side, period. You didn't even have to watch to know that we would struggle with that lineup. If we were to win, it would have come from individual efforts from the likes of Gerrard and Torres, and that's about it. Crouch was poor, although being played out of position didn't help, and Voronin didn't do much. Combine that with two DMs in a three-man midfield, and the increasingly useless Riise at LB, and the odds of us producing any decent football were rather low.

Now, I know that we have to play the likes of Momo, Riise, Voronin, etc., but don't put them all out together, or a display like yesterday's will be the inevitable result. Likewise, I understand the idea of playing two DMs, with the inexperienced Hobbs getting a start, but if you do, then don't play ****ing 4-3-3. It's not ****ing rocket science.

It also bothered me that Rafa took Torres off as soon as we went down 2-1. Considering that he and Gerrard were the only two players producing any real attacking threat, and that we still had a half hour to at least equalize, if not win the game, I cannot help but think that Rafa was content to take a loss at that point, which is unacceptable, seeing as we are now being separated from United and Chelsea in the league table. We could at least have gone down with a fight.

That being said, it was a bad day at the office. I'm not sure we would have won, given the refereeing decisions and just plain bad luck. But Rafa's team selection, formation and substitutions did nothing to help and, if we don't beat Marseille on Tuesday AND take three points against the Scum at Anfield this weekend, things will be looking a lot less rosy.

On the whole I agree with what you're saying although there is no way I would express it in such vehement terms. Yes Rafa could have picked players and a formation that would have given us a better prospect of success. But, there is also no reason as to why we could not have won the game with the system and the players that we started the match with.

Disagree that Rafa settled for defeat at 2-1 down. It looked to me like Torres was taken off as a precaution, after all he got a knock and was taken off pretty much straight away I think. No doubt Rafa had one eye on Tues in doing so, and given the pressure he is under from the owners to get us through in the CL I dont blame him for that. At 3-1 I have no doubt he threw in the towell at that point. Am I right in saying he intended to take Hobbs off, but as soon as we conceded the third he changed it to Gerrard? It's not great seeing the team/manager throwing in the towell but we know it's a one-off giving the huge games we have coming up.

One thing I would say is I think we made it too easy for Reading, they weren't brilliant. They gave us a decent game, but if our players were capable of taking it up a single gear I think we'd have won. But refereeing errors and poor individual judgments cost us the game. Carra was reckless with the foul, if he doesn't have his foot high the ref has no decision to make. It looked like a pen watching it at normal speed to me, so you can't blame the ref that much IMO. Plus Carra could have easily been booked for having his foot high and been suspended for Man U. He got off likely. Then we had Gerrard doing his usual not thinking, hyper-active, steaming-in routine whenever our backs are at the wall which cost us the 2nd goal. And the third goal we conceded was basically because we were chasing the game. These individual errors are as much cause of our defeat if not more than Rafa's selection and tactics.

Also there seemed to be no urgency from the players for whatever reason, esp after we fell behind. No idea why - may be the players were as guilty as Rafa of having one eye on Tues?

[Spionkop69]

I've purposely avoided the footy forums since last night because I was certain the knives would be out for Rafa on here as usually. No offence to you DJS, although that's not the most negative post I've read from you and I'm sure worse has been said since yesterday but your post above is a case in point.

We need to look at yesterday in perspective. Yes, Rafa's team selection and tactics perhaps did not give us the best chance of victory yesterday, but he still started with our key players in spite of much bigger games on the horizon and the team should still have been capable of winning the game. As out of sorts as we were yesterday, we could still have easily won the 3 points, we had an unjust penalty awarded against us, we couldm have won 2 ourselves, and we hit the woodwork twice, and but for Gerrard's usual hyper, steaming-in routine when we're under the cosh (he needs to be more calm and composed sometimes) and the goal we conceded as a result, I'm certain we would not have lost that game. Yesterday clearly was just never going to be our day.

I'm not judging Rafa on the basis of yesterday. He is under huge pressure to win the game on Tues, he knows that he could perhaps lose his job if we dont win in Marseille or knows that his Jan transfer kitty will be significantly reduced and the reinforcements we badly need might not be obtainable. I blame the owners and board for not easing the pressure on him and reassuring him that his job is safe and that he will have a specific amount ot spend in Jan regardless of CL progress. In the absence of such assurances, it is no surprise he prioritised Tues, esp as soon as we went 3-1 down. We have much bigger games than yesterday on the horizon, and he'd be foolish not to prioritise those ahead of Reading away.

Rafa can take us to the top, I am firmly of that belief, but he needs to be backed right now so he can get the reinforcements we badly need.

A well reasoned post after an LFC loss is unusual. Take a bow.

I have avoided the forums since Saturday as well. They have a tendency to go into paronoid meltdown after a loss or poor performance is a real off putter.

[Morse]

I've purposely avoided the footy forums since last night because I was certain the knives would be out for Rafa on here as usually. No offence to you DJS, although that's not the most negative post I've read from you and I'm sure worse has been said since yesterday but your post above is a case in point.

We need to look at yesterday in perspective. Yes, Rafa's team selection and tactics perhaps did not give us the best chance of victory yesterday, but he still started with our key players in spite of much bigger games on the horizon and the team should still have been capable of winning the game. As out of sorts as we were yesterday, we could still have easily won the 3 points, we had an unjust penalty awarded against us, we couldm have won 2 ourselves, and we hit the woodwork twice, and but for Gerrard's usual hyper, steaming-in routine when we're under the cosh (he needs to be more calm and composed sometimes) and the goal we conceded as a result, I'm certain we would not have lost that game. Yesterday clearly was just never going to be our day.

I'm not judging Rafa on the basis of yesterday. He is under huge pressure to win the game on Tues, he knows that he could perhaps lose his job if we dont win in Marseille or knows that his Jan transfer kitty will be significantly reduced and the reinforcements we badly need might not be obtainable. I blame the owners and board for not easing the pressure on him and reassuring him that his job is safe and that he will have a specific amount ot spend in Jan regardless of CL progress. In the absence of such assurances, it is no surprise he prioritised Tues, esp as soon as we went 3-1 down. We have much bigger games than yesterday on the horizon, and he'd be foolish not to prioritise those ahead of Reading away.

Rafa can take us to the top, I am firmly of that belief, but he needs to be backed right now so he can get the reinforcements we badly need.

Great post.

[jack sonnelle]

It's all well and good, but if we make games like yesterday a regular thing, we aint winning any titles.

Of course, if we make games like the preceding 5 a regular thing, we'll win plenty.

All depends on your perspective. But from that comment I'd guess you're not a 'glass half full' guy are you?. In fact, you'd appear to be a 'glass 5/6ths empty' kind of guy given our 'current form' is P6 W5 D0 L1 F22 A4!

[Craig_H]

Of course, if we make games like the preceding 5 a regular thing, we'll win plenty.

All depends on your perspective. But from that comment I'd guess you're not a 'glass half full' guy are you?. In fact, you'd appear to be a 'glass 5/6ths empty' kind of guy given our 'current form' is P6 W5 D0 L1 F22 A4!

Our current form is great, and 1 loss in 6 isnt bad usually.

But when you're in the chasing pack and the others usually win, you cant afford to lose at places like Reading.

If we'd won against Spurs and Brum, then yeah...but we didnt, did we?