Anyone else fail to see Alonso tonight?

[tomasjj]

I think we need better players than Yossi and Kewell. It always makes me smile when people say that United play 4-5-1. Yes they do but they have Ronaldo and Giggs as their wingers!! Massive difference.



Our inept formation last night with Kewell and Pennant, who has 3 goals and 4 assists between them over the last two years, made it easy for Wigan. Granted, they got lucky. My point is that 8 shots on goal for 93 mins against the worst away side in the PL is jut not good enough. Letting Gerrard roam about is rarely a good idea. Playing with two defensive midfielders against Wigan at home was unnecessary and prevented us from applying the pressure that we all know we can at Anfield. The stats prove that as well. 8 ****ing shots, Tomas!


I agree that 8 shots on goal is not good enough.

But it is hard to create against 10 men behind the ball. We need better players. With better wingers, precise crossing, SG running into the box instead of staying too far behind, we would have had a lot more. That seemed to be the idea of this system.



I agree with you in principle that the formation as such doesn't need to be defensive. But it turned out to be because Gerrard dropped deep. Because Alonso sat on line with Mascher instead of infront. Because our wingers pose zero goalthreat.


SG too deep. Alonso too deep. Wingers... not good enough. I reckon Babel was injured...only possible explanation. I'd rather have El Zahr than Pennant, cause as good as the positions he gets into, he has very poor end product.

And we were a lot worse with Crouch on the pitch too. Then we stopped playing and it was all hit and hope.


Rafa should known that there was a great risk that this would happen. You HAVE to blame him for fielding a formation that would leave us with a thin ass 1-0 lead against Wigan with 10 to go. We should not even have been in that position.

You have to be ready to put some of the blame at Rafa's door. Saying we know ****e all about football and that he was not to blame is just not good enough my friend.

I think the plan was good, but the execution was not. Rafa cannot put the ball in the net mate. We had more than enough chances to win by 3 goals against an ultra defensive side.

There have been other games where I have been VERY disappointed with Rafas approach, but this was not one of them. Agree to disagree and all that jazz...on this point.

[CAD]

I think the plan was good, but the execution was not. Rafa cannot put the ball in the net mate. We had more than enough chances to win by 3 goals against an ultra defensive side.

There have been other games where I have been VERY disappointed with Rafas approach, but this was not one of them. Agree to disagree and all that jazz...on this point.

What really bugs me is Rafa's inability to act when it's clear that things are not working. We have seen it too many times in the PL. We saw it in Athens as well.

Take Alonso and Kewell off and throw Crouch and Babel/Yossi on at half time and play the 4-4-2.

[Dhav]

Where the system fell down was SG roaming left,right,centre to collect the ball from our midfielders rather than breaking into the box to support Torres and look to get on the end of JP's crosses. No point playing with two orthodox wingers and hitting far post crosses with only one player in the box (a la Athens). Would have been better if JP had instead got to the by-line and looked to pull it back for SG to get on the end. But SG preferred to want to get the ball rather than make forwward runs to support Torres. More tactical indiscipline from SG? garcia would have played that role much better last night IMo.

[tomasjj]

What really bugs me is Rafa's inability to act when it's clear that things are not working. We have seen it too many times in the PL. We saw it in Athens as well.

Take Alonso and Kewell off and throw Crouch and Babel/Yossi on at half time and play the 4-4-2.

Thing is, when Crouch is on, we start to play more crap and just hoof it. I don't mind another striker in there, but it takes away our movement and we stop running and just hoof it in an hit and hope manner.
It is not easy for crouch either, but we just look **** when we do this.

Rafa didn't have to act at half time imo, and we were still creating chances in the 2nd half after we scored..we just couldnt get no. 2. then they score and it is 10 min to go. Not much time....

Would we have scored if rafa had made the above changes at the break? We can never know.

I reckon Babel must be injured since he wasnt involved at all last night. It would have been perfect.

[CAD]

Thing is, when Crouch is on, we start to play more crap and just hoof it. I don't mind another striker in there, but it takes away our movement and we stop running and just hoof it in an hit and hope manner.
It is not easy for crouch either, but we just look **** when we do this.

Rafa didn't have to act at half time imo, and we were still creating chances in the 2nd half after we scored..we just couldnt get no. 2. then they score and it is 10 min to go. Not much time....

Would we have scored if rafa had made the above changes at the break? We can never know.

I reckon Babel must be injured since he wasnt involved at all last night. It would have been perfect.

We might as well leave it. Suffice to say that if I was the manager and we had a 1st half where we only mangaged 4 shots against the most inferior away team in the PL I would do something. Put Kuyt on or Crouch. Introduce something new to the game. Rafa did this with six mins to go. Just not good enough imho.

[Dhav]

We certainly looked far less of a goal threat when Crouch came on. Babel with his direct running could have made the difference. Was expecting him to start to be honest.

[tomasjj]

We might as well leave it. Suffice to say that if I was the manager and we had a 1st half where we only mangaged 4 shots against the most inferior away team in the PL I would do something. Put Kuyt on or Crouch. Introduce something new to the game. Rafa did this with six mins to go. Just not good enough imho.

Yeah, we can leave it.

But you don't have to make subs to change something.

[bigfooty]

Thing is, when Crouch is on, we start to play more crap and just hoof it. I don't mind another striker in there, but it takes away our movement and we stop running and just hoof it in an hit and hope manner.
It is not easy for crouch either, but we just look **** when we do this.

Rafa didn't have to act at half time imo, and we were still creating chances in the 2nd half after we scored..we just couldnt get no. 2. then they score and it is 10 min to go. Not much time....

Would we have scored if rafa had made the above changes at the break? We can never know.

I reckon Babel must be injured since he wasnt involved at all last night. It would have been perfect.

If we hoof it to Crouch that is a team / coaching problem. Crouch is best when balls are delivered from wide areas - be it deeper balls from Finnan or proper crosses. Any muppet can see that from looking at his goals last season. But in this campaign in particular when he is on the pitch the team seems to have resorted to lumping it up to him from very deep. Perhaps it is because we have so many central players drifting into the middle, giving us fk all width.

[bigfooty]

To elaborate further

Chelsea Community Shield - Bellamy cross nodded in.
Haifa Away - Cross from Pennant nodded in at near post.
Galatasary Home - Overhead kick from a cross, think other was from a cross too.
Bordeaux Away - Header from a corner
Eindhoven Home - Bundled in from a Kuyt cross
Bolton Home - Overhead kick from a Pennant (?) cross
West Ham away - Our best team goal of the season, finishing first time from a nice ball from the left.
Arsenal hat-trick - All three goals from crosses
Eindhoven Away - Head from cross
Eindhoven Home - Poked in a ball centered from God

Not to mention his England goals and some others which were down to deft feet in the middle.

Crouch is hugely effective when you have width and crosses, like we did when we ripped Besiktas apart. Think how many of those goals came from balls being crossed in. Unfortunately this season we've played very central, very narrow, trying to drive though the middle of teams. Crouch has therefore been wasted and, as a team, it's been Torres' pace that has gotten us out of trouble.

[tomasjj]

That might be where he gets most of his goals, but he is far from effective with his chances. He wastes too many for my liking.

But I do think that we have to play wide when we have him in the side. Shame our wingers are not good enough.

[bigfooty]

We have the players capable :

Reina
Finnan-Carra-Agger-Arbeloa
Gerrard-Alonso-Mascher-Kewell
Crouch-Torres

Finnan and Arbeloa both like to get forward. Gerrard will move infield frequently but he also links up well with Finnan on the overlap. Crouch attracts defenders leaving space for Torres, whilst also making more of crosses from Finnan/Gerrard/Kewell/Arbeloa.

That's almost the side that did so well in 2005-2006 with Mashcer instead of Momo, Arbeloa instead of Riise, Agger instead of Sami and Torres instead of Fowler/Cisse/Nando. All to me are improvements so it /should/ make for a better team, but it is not one that Rafa has chosen to pick or been able to pick.

[tomasjj]

We have the players capable :

Reina
Finnan-Carra-Agger-Arbeloa
Gerrard-Alonso-Mascher-Kewell
Crouch-Torres

Finnan and Arbeloa both like to get forward. Gerrard will move infield frequently but he also links up well with Finnan on the overlap. Crouch attracts defenders leaving space for Torres, whilst also making more of crosses from Finnan/Gerrard/Kewell/Arbeloa.

That's almost the side that did so well in 2005-2006 with Mashcer instead of Momo, Arbeloa instead of Riise, Agger instead of Sami and Torres instead of Fowler/Cisse/Nando. All to me are improvements so it /should/ make for a better team, but it is not one that Rafa has chosen to pick or been able to pick.

I wouldn't mind seeing that team having a go. SG on the right is an enigma though. He has to be up for it, but rarely is. When he is though, and stays on the right, we look good imo.

[dww]

That might be where he gets most of his goals, but he is far from effective with his chances. He wastes too many for my liking.

But I do think that we have to play wide when we have him in the side. Shame our wingers are not good enough.

It depends really if with him in the team we create enough extra chances then even if he is wasteful he will still improve the team. I think that with Aurelio and Finnan in the fullback positions Crouch up front works well as we get crosses in early from deeper position. This also suits our wide midfielders as the burden is taken away from them to always offer width as they are all (Pennant excepted) inclined to come and join in the middle.

[bigfooty]

Crouch does indeed usually need a few to score, I'm a fan but I have to admit that is the case, but last night we were playing crosses in and the only person in the box was Nando, fighting off three Wigan defenders trying to get to the ball, or Kewell straining at the far post. It was painful to watch and not unlike the Athens final when Pennant was skinning people for fun but had Gerrard, Kuyt and Riise to aim at. Kuyt isn't bad from 6 yards out but it might have been a different story if Crouch had been there.

[jayjay]

Hey, don't be disappointed.
We just differ in opinion.

Let me explain a bit.

I want all those 3 attacking mids to create AND switch positions. Like we did with SG, Kewell and Luis in Rafas first season.

Aurelio who was excellent against City....was not so good last night. Agreed. Still he is a decent attacking fullback, but I agree with you that this department needs better players.

Finest football we have played under Rafa

For now these are the best players to complete your line-up:

---------Torres---------
-Babel----Benny----SG--
-----Masch--Alonso-----
-FA-----DA---JC-----AA-
----------Peppis---------