Evolution of the squad

[tomasjj]

And to comment on your Chelsea/Mourinho vs Rafa comparism...

Do you think Mourinho would win the PL with our current squad and 89 mill to shop for?

[AFII]

My point is that I don't think if we hired another manager would matter a lot under the same financial constraints compared to the other 3 top teams.

Maybe we can in a few years time when our young players are getting ready for the PL. But I am still not sure we can just compete on the basis of that and the current budgets we have. Sadly. But, I hope, with the new stadium AND the youth policy we will be able to compete within 5-8 years. It is a long time for us to wait, since we have waited too long already. But the stakes have been upped financially, so we have to make the necessary moves and sacrifices.
I think these 2 factors need to be sorted for us to compete, and whether it is Rafa, Maureen, Lippi, Hiddink or Another I don't think it would matter, cause that man would have to be an incredible genius to compete with already top and seasoned managers armed with tons of cash and/or a great youth set up.

Depressing, I know...my take anyway.

The only way for us to able to compete is to buy quality and get rid of the "deadwood". Quality more or less always costs a lot of money.

If our manager isn't able to go for his first choice targets then we will be fighting for a CL place and not the title.

The other teams will improve season after season. We lose ground every time our manager isn't backed in a window.

[FatTony]

Despite what many see as Rafa's tactical eccentricities he has presided over a development of the squad to a new depth and quality - but with some exceptions. We have some fine central midfielders (SG, Alonso, Mascher), some fine central defenders (Carra, Agger and even Sami sometimes), a fine striker (Torres), good utility/option players (Benayoun, Arbeloa, Aurelio) and some promising new talent (Lucas). BUT - the flanks and our bench seem to be where all our problems lie. We have the ageing Finnan - still excellent but not getting any younger and with no obvious replacement of the same quality (i.e. good defender and pace); right-wing - Benayoun - but is he good enough and is he really a winger? Pennant? No. ; left-back...Arbeloa can do a job but again, where is the pace? Riise? No. Is this why we are sniffing around Bridge? Left-wing...Kewell. Sometimes brilliant, often awol or injured. We have problems down both flanks and nobody in the reserves to fill the gaps. Up-front we don't have a partner for Torres of anywhere near the same techncial quality....
BUT - if given time and cash, Rafa can plug those gaps. He has improved the spine of the team (Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascher, Torres) and now needs to do the same with the flanks. Thoughts?

I agree with a lot of this, but I just wish people would stop mentioning the cash situation when we're sat amongst a lot of teams who've spent far less. This ultimately shows a failure.

[Helios Creed]

Yep, we drop them home AND away.

or....

work with me here.

[Red Chilli]

And to comment on your Chelsea/Mourinho vs Rafa comparism...

Do you think Mourinho would win the PL with our current squad and 89 mill to shop for?

This squad plus 89 million?

Yeah I reckon he'd win it

[tomasjj]

This squad plus 89 million?

Yeah I reckon he'd win it

Would Rafa?

[Red Chilli]

Would Rafa?

I'm not so sure.

[Neil Young]

Yes, Wenger is special. I grant you that. He won the double in the first season. Rafa won the CL, but he can't live on that forever.

Maureen, well, I think he is a good manager, but not world class. He is a cunt, so I wouldn't want him here, if that is what we are discussing.
But I think Maureens inherited squad, added with the measly 89 mill, was tons better than the team Rafa got in his hands then.

As I said to Al, I don't think even the worlds best manager could win us the PL in competition with the top 3 teams here, simply down to lack of financial muscle.

I think you can argue that Rafa winning the CL with Houllier's squad (Traore, Dudek, Smicer...) was a far bigger achievement than Wenger winning the Double with the squad he inherited.

I'm not disputing Wenger's achievement but, for example, his back five was by far the best defence in the country at the time and had been for some years.

Still I'd agree Rafa can't live off the CL win (or the FA Cup win) forever.

[Red Chilli]

I think you can argue that Rafa winning the CL with Houllier's squad (Traore, Dudek, Smicer...) was a far bigger achievement than Wenger winning the Double with the squad he inherited.

I'm not disputing Wenger's achievement but, for example, his back five was by far the best defence in the country at the time and had been for some years.

Still I'd agree Rafa can't live off the CL win (or the FA Cup win) forever.

Wow

I've got a problem with that Neil. Winning the double requires the team to be consistent over 38 league games and a cup knockout competition.
The Champions league is essentially a league where you only have to finish in the top 2, followed by several 2 legged ties followed by the final.

Much tougher to win the league, let alone the double IMO.

[Neil Young]

Wow

I've got a problem with that Neil. Winning the double requires the team to be consistent over 38 league games and a cup knockout competition.
The Champions league is essentially a league where you only have to finish in the top 2, followed by several 2 legged ties followed by the final.

Much tougher to win the league, let alone the double IMO.

The point is you have to compare the squads they inherited, not just say that if Wenger won the Double in his first season to Rafa's CL then Wenger must be a better manager and what's taking Rafa so long, etc.

I said it's arguable.

[AFII]

Wow

I've got a problem with that Neil. Winning the double requires the team to be consistent over 38 league games and a cup knockout competition.
The Champions league is essentially a league where you only have to finish in the top 2, followed by several 2 legged ties followed by the final.

Much tougher to win the league, let alone the double IMO.

You can win the CL without having a great squad but you can't win the league without a great squad.

The CL is more about which team that can change tactics best against different playing styles.

[FatTony]

I think you can argue that Rafa winning the CL with Houllier's squad (Traore, Dudek, Smicer...) was a far bigger achievement than Wenger winning the Double with the squad he inherited.

I'm not disputing Wenger's achievement but, for example, his back five was by far the best defence in the country at the time and had been for some years.

Still I'd agree Rafa can't live off the CL win (or the FA Cup win) forever.

Winning the CL with the likes of Traore and Biscan was nothing short of a miracle, agreed, but as you've said Rafa can't keep living on that. Wenger's premiership title double in his first season was also incredible. You could argue all day about what was more impressive, but they were both superb achievements in their own way.

We've hit a wall this season, spent more but haven't really progressed. Do we have a better squad now than back then? I'd say yes, but quality is a matter of opinion, the facts are in the league table and as far as that goes we're a little better than that whilst some of the smaller clubs have progressed to our level (on the basis of the table).

The question really is have we progressed as a unit under Rafa? No opinion, just facts and that means league table points. We've definitely progressed since Houllier's days, but only to the tune of 8 points over 3 years. Is that really significant progress?

[Neil Young]

Winning the CL with the likes of Traore and Biscan was nothing short of a miracle, agreed, but as you've said Rafa can't keep living on that. Wenger's premiership title double in his first season was also incredible. You could argue all day about what was more impressive, but they were both superb achievements in their own way.

We've hit a wall this season, spent more but haven't really progressed. Do we have a better squad now than back then? I'd say yes, but quality is a matter of opinion, the facts are in the league table and as far as that goes we're a little better than that whilst some of the smaller clubs have progressed to our level (on the basis of the table).

The question really is have we progressed as a unit under Rafa? No opinion, just facts and that means league table points. We've definitely progressed since Houllier's days, but only to the tune of 8 points over 3 years. Is that really significant progress?

I think you're being selective in your choice of facts in order to make your opinion seem more robust. You could choose trophies won (as you did before when comparing his record with Wenger's). You could choose the value of the squad (allowing for inflation in transfer fees). However, the first one we've already dealt with and the second one would undermine your argument. So you choose League points, yet we're only halfway through the season...

I think we've made progress too. Is it enough? Not really, I agree. Does that mean getting rid of Rafa is the right course of action? I think doing that would be a huge gamble - it might work but it's far more likely to set us further back.

[vonk]

We either go :

1. the Chelsea route - Pouring vast quantities of money in and getting the very best players. Playing "effective", but not necessarily attractive, football, relying on individual brilliance to sway matches.

2. the Arsenal route - keeping the core of the squad we have and blooding a few younger players. Splashing out on a big name occasionally. Concentrating on playing top quality football. A higher risk strategy because you can never completely rely on younger players stepping up. Requires a manager who can motivate and coach his players in the finer arts and relies on a high tempo passing game.

We are between the two stools I feel. Rafa can do number one but to be honest he's no Wenger on the attractive football side....

[AFII]

We either go :

1. the Chelsea route - Pouring vast quantities of money in and getting the very best players. Playing "effective", but not necessarily attractive, football, relying on individual brilliance to sway matches.

2. the Arsenal route - keeping the core of the squad we have and blooding a few younger players. Splashing out on a big name occasionally. Concentrating on playing top quality football. A higher risk strategy because you can never completely rely on younger players stepping up. Requires a manager who can motivate and coach his players in the finer arts and relies on a high tempo passing game.

We are between the two stools I feel. Rafa can do number one but to be honest he's no Wenger on the attractive football side....

Eh, Rafa's Valencia played the same style of football that Arsenal do now. So Rafa can get his team to play like Arsenal if he has the right players.