Evolution of the squad

[FatTony]

I think you're being selective in your choice of facts in order to make your opinion seem more robust. You could choose trophies won (as you did before when comparing his record with Wenger's). You could choose the value of the squad (allowing for inflation in transfer fees). However, the first one we've already dealt with and the second one would undermine your argument. So you choose League points, yet we're only halfway through the season...

I think we've made progress too. Is it enough? Not really, I agree. Does that mean getting rid of Rafa is the right course of action? I think doing that would be a huge gamble - it might work but it's far more likely to set us further back.

I can't even begin on this, I've said so much on various posts over the last 24 hours that I don't even know which parts you're referring too anymore.... but on the points side of things, we're passed the halfway mark now so its a good indicator. I think we'll end up with no more than 75 points this season.

As far as the Wenger thing, I'm sure I only asked the question about his first season when someone else mentioned him, didn't use it as an argument for or against....and that was in another thread!

[vonk]

Eh, Rafa's Valencia played the same style of football that Arsenal do now. So Rafa can get his team to play like Arsenal if he has the right players.

Things is, he bought most of these players. I'm not as confident as you are that Rafa could have us playing like Arsenal. His teams are effectively defensive. Wenger's young players have belief, something that seems to be sorely lacking in our players. Take united at home for example, our players looked completely devoid of ideas or confidence once they went a goal up.

[Red Chilli]

I think you're being selective in your choice of facts in order to make your opinion seem more robust.

How dare he do such a thing on EST1892???

Burn him, burn him!

[dww]

We either go :

1. the Chelsea route - Pouring vast quantities of money in and getting the very best players. Playing "effective", but not necessarily attractive, football, relying on individual brilliance to sway matches.

2. the Arsenal route - keeping the core of the squad we have and blooding a few younger players. Splashing out on a big name occasionally. Concentrating on playing top quality football. A higher risk strategy because you can never completely rely on younger players stepping up. Requires a manager who can motivate and coach his players in the finer arts and relies on a high tempo passing game.

We are between the two stools I feel. Rafa can do number one but to be honest he's no Wenger on the attractive football side....

I'm not sure that the two options you put up are the only options. We have been more effective as a team/squad for two seasons that Arsenal. There are aspect of there approach in terms of young players I think we should adopt but I suspect that over a season their pattern of play will prove second best to the more prosaic United.

In my opinion we have no choice but take a long term strategy similar to Arsenals however the idea that we have to follow their quick counter attacking style of play does not follow.

On the other hand we do need to concentrate more on scoring goals. But if you look at what has made Arsenal so effective this year it is players like Fabregas and Hleb stepping up after in the former case years of being ace but not scoring much and in the latters flattering to decieve. I believe that Benayoun can develop his game in a similar vein to Hleb. I think that in the same way that Fabregas' emergence as a goal scoring force owes a lot to the improvement of Frabregas relieving him having to bring the ball out of defense an improvement in some of our wide players will have a similar effect on some of our central players.

It is about making the team greater than the sum of it's parts and for me that usually involves stability - so far during Rafa's reign we have always had to upgrade the team in stages, this summer saw the first time we could make big strides in any position by buying. I firmly believe that by correctly using our young players and the right signings we have a good foundation to push on now, which we haven't had before.

[Skillz]

Things is, he bought most of these players. I'm not as confident as you are that Rafa could have us playing like Arsenal. His teams are effectively defensive. Wenger's young players have belief, something that seems to be sorely lacking in our players. Take united at home for example, our players looked completely devoid of ideas or confidence once they went a goal up.

Do you think those players were his first choices?

What I mean is, if we bought Malouda, Simao, Alves etc would we play better than we do now.

It's easy to blame Rafa for his buys but if we are to compete we need top shelf players. Rafa has had to do with less than that.

[dww]

Do you think those players were his first choices?

What I mean is, if we bought Malouda, Simao, Alves etc would we play better than we do now.

It's easy to blame Rafa for his buys but if we are to compete we need top shelf players. Rafa has had to do with less than that.

On the other hand if he didn't have money for top class players he could have bought top class young players like Wenger has in the past and we may have been better off now.

I think Rafa has done well in the transfer market in general but there seems to be a problem, a mental block if you will, at the club at present and getting us performing well again is the sort of challenge Rafa needs to surmount if he is to keep his job. Whether to do it means taking more risks tactically or getting new players in is what he and the budget allocated to him will have to decide.

[Skillz]

On the other hand if he didn't have money for top class players he could have bought top class young players like Wenger has in the past and we may have been better off now.

I think Rafa has done well in the transfer market in general but there seems to be a problem, a mental block if you will, at the club at present and getting us performing well again is the sort of challenge Rafa needs to surmount if he is to keep his job. Whether to do it means taking more risks tactically or getting new players in is what he and the budget allocated to him will have to decide.

you mean like now that he is allowed to. Previously he had no control over our youth recruitment and considering who he has brought in this year, I would suggest we give let him continue.

[carlton]

Rafa seems obsessed about having a big squad though and thus getting rid of the deadwood might take longer than it should. He is also stubborn. Selling Riise, carson, momo, crouch and dare I say it alonso should provide the $ for 2-3 world class signings. Voronin should go just to reduce the wage bill and Lindfield or Nemeth could be used as a 4th striker.

[dww]

you mean like now that he is allowed to. Previously he had no control over our youth recruitment and considering who he has brought in this year, I would suggest we give let him continue.

I was actually more meaning that we bought Pennant for £8m when the chances are he wasn't going to improve massively from a decent PL player. We could have spent the money differently, i.e. taken more of a gamble but payed say £4m each for two top young players or bought Walcott say where the risk is bigger but the payoff potentially greater which is what Wenger did for a number of years. There are obviously problems with this strategy too but I feel we may, particularly in attacking areas been too conservative with our purchases.

I agree Rafa has improved the level below the level where players step straight into the first team squad immeasurably since he took control of it but I think that is a separate, if related, issue.

[Elvis]

Rafa seems obsessed about having a big squad though and thus getting rid of the deadwood might take longer than it should. He is also stubborn. Selling Riise, carson, momo, crouch and dare I say it alonso should provide the $ for 2-3 world class signings. Voronin should go just to reduce the wage bill and Lindfield or Nemeth could be used as a 4th striker.

I don't agree with "stubborn". Unlike some managers he has been quick to get rid of players (though not all) that he has signed who aren't up to it (Morientes, Bellamy, Kromkamp most notably). I wonder whether his basic strategic mindset means that wingers come below other positions in his team? Can you imagine Rafa spending 25 mill on a Ronaldo or a Ronaldinho? Most of us think that we need this sort of creative width in our team (whether they are great at tracking back or not), but he seems happy with Pennant and Kewell, which is odd. (And Babel, who he doesn't play much).

[dww]

I don't agree with "stubborn". Unlike some managers he has been quick to get rid of players (though not all) that he has signed who aren't up to it (Morientes, Bellamy, Kromkamp most notably). I wonder whether his basic strategic mindset means that wingers come below other positions in his team? Can you imagine Rafa spending 25 mill on a Ronaldo or a Ronaldinho? Most of us think that we need this sort of creative width in our team (whether they are great at tracking back or not), but he seems happy with Pennant and Kewell, which is odd. (And Babel, who he doesn't play much).

I think he would spend £25m on Ronaldo to be honest. The problem is he isn't available to us and for all people go on about needing quality wingers I can't see that many in the world, certainly who would seem a good bet to slip into the PL. Added to the fact it is not clear that we have the money or that the much talked of sales would bring in the money people imagine.

I think Benayoun is a good signing and if he can settle in more might offer a lot to the team. IMO we need players like him who create but preferably ones which also chip in with a few goals - i.e. players more like Hleb and Rosicky at Arsenal than wingers. I think Babel may develop in this way but he needs time IMO and I think Rafa is handlinghim well on an individual basis although I do feel sometimes for the team as a whole his pace might be better used right now in the middle.

[El Jefecito]

Agreed. I think it's clear our biggest problems are on the flanks - mainly wide midfield but also to an extent full-back.

We need some top quality on the left AND right flanks - but God knows who. Kewell and Pennant just aren't good enough. Yossi is, but to my mind he'd be a squad player rather than someone to start in our strongest XI.

I also think it's pretty obvious we need one or even two more to replace Voronin & Kuyt (and even Crouch who appears to have no future).

Yossi is an inside right. For us to compete we need both inside and outside rights (probably showing my age). Yossi is fine the outside right position is still up for grabs tho'. Imagine if we had Alves

[redblood]

Despite what many see as Rafa's tactical eccentricities he has presided over a development of the squad to a new depth and quality - but with some exceptions. We have some fine central midfielders (SG, Alonso, Mascher), some fine central defenders (Carra, Agger and even Sami sometimes), a fine striker (Torres), good utility/option players (Benayoun, Arbeloa, Aurelio) and some promising new talent (Lucas). BUT - the flanks and our bench seem to be where all our problems lie. We have the ageing Finnan - still excellent but not getting any younger and with no obvious replacement of the same quality (i.e. good defender and pace); right-wing - Benayoun - but is he good enough and is he really a winger? Pennant? No. ; left-back...Arbeloa can do a job but again, where is the pace? Riise? No. Is this why we are sniffing around Bridge? Left-wing...Kewell. Sometimes brilliant, often awol or injured. We have problems down both flanks and nobody in the reserves to fill the gaps. Up-front we don't have a partner for Torres of anywhere near the same techncial quality....
BUT - if given time and cash, Rafa can plug those gaps. He has improved the spine of the team (Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascher, Torres) and now needs to do the same with the flanks. Thoughts?

Well said, I feel and have done since Litmanen left that we need a proper playmaker not easy to find at any price.

We are badly missing somebody of that nature and caliber in the team, probably to play just off Torres.

[redblood]

I think he would spend £25m on Ronaldo to be honest. The problem is he isn't available to us and for all people go on about needing quality wingers I can't see that many in the world, certainly who would seem a good bet to slip into the PL. Added to the fact it is not clear that we have the money or that the much talked of sales would bring in the money people imagine.

I think Benayoun is a good signing and if he can settle in more might offer a lot to the team. IMO we need players like him who create but preferably ones which also chip in with a few goals - i.e. players more like Hleb and Rosicky at Arsenal than wingers. I think Babel may develop in this way but he needs time IMO and I think Rafa is handlinghim well on an individual basis although I do feel sometimes for the team as a whole his pace might be better used right now in the middle.

Completely agree mate it's something I've been saying for a while.

[Kopite_Colin]

Yossi is an inside right. For us to compete we need both inside and outside rights (probably showing my age). Yossi is fine the outside right position is still up for grabs tho'. Imagine if we had Alves

If the inside right position still existed, Yossi would have to kill Steven Gerrard to claim that spot. That would actually be SG's natural position.

I still hope against hope that somehow Alves will finish up at Anfield.