Rotation?!!?

[Jazzmaster]

Rafa has kind of made a mockery of his rotation policy of late. He claims to rotate to keep players fresh which is fine. However, what is the point of having fresh players when there is no possibility of winning the title come the second half of the season? There has been no proof in the past 4 seasons that it actually makes any difference whatsoever. I accept that all managers rotate to an extent, but rafa not only rotates players but also does so with drastic formations that have been shown to fail.

Furthermore, before the Wigan game, Crouch was arguably the freshest player available, yet he played the likes of alonso and pennant who are only recently recovered from injury? Where the hell was the rotation policy when it made the most sense to use it?

Discuss.

[DannyMan2006]

Rafa has kind of made a mockery of his rotation policy of late. He claims to rotate to keep players fresh which is fine. However, what is the point of having fresh players when there is no possibility of winning the title come the second half of the season? There has been no proof in the past 4 seasons that it actually makes any difference whatsoever. I accept that all managers rotate to an extent, but rafa not only rotates players but also does so with drastic formations that have been shown to fail.

Furthermore, before the Wigan game, Crouch was arguably the freshest player available, yet he played the likes of alonso and pennant who are only recently recovered from injury? Where the hell was the rotation policy when it made the most sense to use it?

Discuss.

There is some sense to the rotation policy, but it made no sense last night.

I can only guess that he wants rid of Crouch. If he's not gone in January I really will question the sanity of Rafa. Why never play him if you want to keep him?

[Joe King]

The rotation policy makes no sense when you playing a side who have the most ugliest manager alive. Sven comes second.

All joking aside, it was stupid to rotate this game when the perfect opportunity to rotate was the Luton game. Rafa needs to know his best team and stick with it, or at least 9/11 of them. If Liverpool were on a 10 match winning streak and he can see the players burning out, then maybe he could do it but if he is changing systems to confuse players and the coaches, changing individuals into uncomfortable positions, it clearly doesn't help.

I just hope Rafa isn't hard hearded if he is to be given a second chance by the owners.

[Red_Polo]

Rafa has kind of made a mockery of his rotation policy of late. He claims to rotate to keep players fresh which is fine. However, what is the point of having fresh players when there is no possibility of winning the title come the second half of the season? There has been no proof in the past 4 seasons that it actually makes any difference whatsoever. I accept that all managers rotate to an extent, but rafa not only rotates players but also does so with drastic formations that have been shown to fail.

Furthermore, before the Wigan game, Crouch was arguably the freshest player available, yet he played the likes of alonso and pennant who are only recently recovered from injury? Where the hell was the rotation policy when it made the most sense to use it?

Discuss.

That we don't get more points in the second half of the season than the first is not incontravertible evidence that rotation doesn't work. For a start it's not just supposed to keep players fresh for the second half of the season, it's supposed to keep their condition high throughout. Second, it is not even evidence that it doesn't boost us in the second half of the season, becuase how the do we know how many points we'd have accrued without the prior rotation? The second half of the season is tougher with or without that prior rotation, so the first half is not necessarily a great guide.

Also, conditioning is not the only point of rotation, it's to enable more intensive training, the impact of which can't be measured using league stats. The people who see training day in day out are best off making their own observations on this. There are pros and cons to any philosophy but I think people are being more than a bit unreasonable when they try to 'disprove' the theory behind one using stats that don't exclude the hundreds of other variables at play.

Furthermore, it doesn't really matter what you think of rotation, I think anyone with a bit of sense should recognise after yesterday that it is the last of our problems if it's one at all. The very fact you've started a thread blaming rotation for our woes and simultaneoulsy bemoaned our lack of rotation yesterday just goes to show the sheer lunacy of the rotation obsession.

Lastly, something that ****s me off in general - why is it that these days nobody actually talks about the way the team plays rather than who plays? Team selection matters of course, but it's not the be all and end all. The team out yesterday had a decent balance and was far superior to Wigan's. Yet all I seem to hear is team selection and transfer policy. Are we really all that dull now? It's ****ing depressing.

[dww]

That we don't get more points in the second half of the season than the first is not incontravertible evidence that rotation doesn't work. For a start it's not just supposed to keep players fresh for the second half of the season, it's supposed to keep their condition high throughout. Second, it is not even evidence that it doesn't boost us in the second half of the season, becuase how the do we know how many points we'd have accrued without the prior rotation? The second half of the season is tougher with or without that prior rotation, so the first half is not necessarily a great guide.

Also, conditioning is not the only point of rotation, it's to enable more intensive training, the impact of which can't be measured using league stats. The people who see training day in day out are best off making their own observations on this. There are pros and cons to any philosophy but I think people are being more than a bit unreasonable when they try to 'disprove' the theory behind one using stats that don't exclude the hundreds of other variables at play.

Furthermore, it doesn't really matter what you think of rotation, I think anyone with a bit of sense should recognise after yesterday that it is the last of our problems if it's one at all. The very fact you've started a thread blaming rotation for our woes and simultaneoulsy bemoaned our lack of rotation yesterday just goes to show the sheer lunacy of the rotation obsession.

Lastly, something that ****s me off in general - why is it that these days nobody actually talks about the way the team plays rather than who plays? Team selection matters of course, but it's not the be all and end all. The team out yesterday had a decent balance and was far superior to Wigan's. Yet all I seem to hear is team selection and transfer policy. Are we really all that dull now? It's ****ing depressing.

I agree that the team we put out had good balance to it in a lot of ways but in current form it lacked goals. Kewell doesn't look likely and other than that we are putting too much emphasis on Torres and Gerrard.

Very few of our players seem to be playing with the verve that they have at some points this season. We seem to be a very moody side this year - we were flying until the Reading result for a few weeks but after that in the league we have looked to lack confidence and agression. Before that game I always felt we would score in the last 10 minutes of a game if we needed to. Now I have no faith in us in front of goal at all.

That's not to say we have played terribly. We have been very disappointing but we have dominated games. We just seem to lack a killer instinct. I worry that it might a symptom of the off field uncertainty.

[KK07]

Rotation,the subject just keeps coming back around!!

[Jazzmaster]

That we don't get more points in the second half of the season than the first is not incontravertible evidence that rotation doesn't work. For a start it's not just supposed to keep players fresh for the second half of the season, it's supposed to keep their condition high throughout. Second, it is not even evidence that it doesn't boost us in the second half of the season, becuase how the do we know how many points we'd have accrued without the prior rotation? The second half of the season is tougher with or without that prior rotation, so the first half is not necessarily a great guide.

Also, conditioning is not the only point of rotation, it's to enable more intensive training, the impact of which can't be measured using league stats. The people who see training day in day out are best off making their own observations on this. There are pros and cons to any philosophy but I think people are being more than a bit unreasonable when they try to 'disprove' the theory behind one using stats that don't exclude the hundreds of other variables at play.

Furthermore, it doesn't really matter what you think of rotation, I think anyone with a bit of sense should recognise after yesterday that it is the last of our problems if it's one at all. The very fact you've started a thread blaming rotation for our woes and simultaneoulsy bemoaned our lack of rotation yesterday just goes to show the sheer lunacy of the rotation obsession.

Lastly, something that ****s me off in general - why is it that these days nobody actually talks about the way the team plays rather than who plays? Team selection matters of course, but it's not the be all and end all. The team out yesterday had a decent balance and was far superior to Wigan's. Yet all I seem to hear is team selection and transfer policy. Are we really all that dull now? It's ****ing depressing.

What your argument for it then? I still think the media obsession with rafa's rotation is over the top, but given on what ive seen this season I cant defend the constant changes. Surely its measure is in success, and our failings in the league are perhaps not solely down to rotation but its seems to be another cog in the wheel of our underperforming vehicle. And surely the way we play has an awful lot to do with the changing teams and selections.

[Red_Polo]

I agree that the team we put out had good balance to it in a lot of ways but in current form it lacked goals. Kewell doesn't look likely and other than that we are putting too much emphasis on Torres and Gerrard.

Very few of our players seem to be playing with the verve that they have at some points this season. We seem to be a very moody side this year - we were flying until the Reading result for a few weeks but after that in the league we have looked to lack confidence and agression. Before that game I always felt we would score in the last 10 minutes of a game if we needed to. Now I have no faith in us in front of goal at all.

That's not to say we have played terribly. We have been very disappointing but we have dominated games. We just seem to lack a killer instinct. I worry that it might a symptom of the off field uncertainty.

Off-field stuff may be a factor, I agree. I think any team we'd have put out last night would have lacked a bit of confidence. Rafa's job to sort that though, I think we suffer from it far too often. He needs to tell them to stop being so ****ing fragile, go out and act like winners. Too many players hiding at times, just being reactive.

What your argument for it then? I still think the media obsession with rafa's rotation is over the top, but given on what ive seen this season I cant defend the constant changes. Surely its measure is in success, and our failings in the league are perhaps not solely down to rotation but its seems to be another cog in the wheel of our underperforming vehicle. And surely the way we play has an awful lot to do with the changing teams and selections.

Like I said, I don't think there needs to be an argument about it at all, not couched in terms of the Wigan game anyway. You just claimed there was a lack of rotation yesterday, yet we've ended up talking about it for some reason. I just find that depressing. I appreciate the irony you're pointing out, that you felt here was one game he could've rotated more, but surely that registers as nothing more than a footnote in your critique of our performance? I don't mean to direct all this at you in particular btw. I'm just very pissed off with the whole cloud hanging over the club today, and the increasingly mindless way some people criticise the club. I was listening to talksport in the car on the way back down, and it was inevitable I would vent my anger on the first person to mention rotation. So sorry

The total lack of confidence taking the ball out of defence resulting in either hopeful hoofs or forced passing that lacked any fluidity might be something worth talking about, or the way half our players don't seem to want to move and make themselves available, or the fact that our wide players often seem to receive the ball with their backs to the corner flag which was ****ing pointless and did my head in. There's a thousand things worth talking about, but the way rotation is dragged out as a catch all criticism drives me insane.

[Jazzmaster]

Off-field stuff may be a factor, I agree. I think any team we'd have put out last night would have lacked a bit of confidence. Rafa's job to sort that though, I think we suffer from it far too often. He needs to tell them to stop being so ****ing fragile, go out and act like winners. Too many players hiding at times, just being reactive.



Like I said, I don't think there needs to be an argument about it at all, not couched in terms of the Wigan game anyway. You just claimed there was a lack of rotation yesterday, yet we've ended up talking about it for some reason. I just find that depressing. I appreciate the irony you're pointing out, that you felt here was one game he could've rotated more, but surely that registers as nothing more than a footnote in your critique of our performance? I don't mean to direct all this at you in particular btw. I'm just very pissed off with the whole cloud hanging over the club today, and the increasingly mindless way some people criticise the club. I was listening to talksport in the car on the way back down, and it was inevitable I would vent my anger on the first person to mention rotation. So sorry

The total lack of confidence taking the ball out of defence resulting in either hopeful hoofs or forced passing that lacked any fluidity might be something worth talking about, or the way half our players don't seem to want to move and make themselves available, or the fact that our wide players often seem to receive the ball with their backs to the corner flag which was ****ing pointless and did my head in. There's a thousand things worth talking about, but the way rotation is dragged out as a catch all criticism drives me insane.

No worries mate i feel your pain. I do. Everytime we lose it fuels the ammo of those who would serve to undermine the club and the manager. That pisses me off most of all. I feel a bit dirty for mentioning rotation now.

I do think though that a more positive selection (yes even including kuyt) would have borne more fruit last night and we wouldnt be moaning here at all. We would have dropped only two points (at city) over chissy which would have been fine and kept us in touch. Points are so crucial now that dropping them at wigan has put everyone into a numb zone where the season means a little less now as we realise that our chance is gone.

January is hard enough without dealing with all this uncertainty. I wish rafa would hurry up and win the ****ing league so I can sleep well at night again.

[tomasjj]

There is no point in rotating if the points you lose in the first half of the season are more than you win in the second half of the season.

Then you could rather start out with the best team and stick with it until they tired.

But....then comes the other little factor called the Champions League....with money and fame...

[RoadEnd]

You should play your best team every game. If we are 2-0 or more up - then take players off.

The "best team" doesn't necessarily mean the "same team".

Playing one up front at home against a team such as Wigan is criminal.

[Snigger]

rotation is one thing, playing at home with 5 in midfield, two of which are holding central midfielders against a team like Wigan is cuntery.

[Red_Polo]

No worries mate i feel your pain. I do. Everytime we lose it fuels the ammo of those who would serve to undermine the club and the manager. That pisses me off most of all. I feel a bit dirty for mentioning rotation now.

I do think though that a more positive selection (yes even including kuyt) would have borne more fruit last night and we wouldnt be moaning here at all. We would have dropped only two points (at city) over chissy which would have been fine and kept us in touch. Points are so crucial now that dropping them at wigan has put everyone into a numb zone where the season means a little less now as we realise that our chance is gone.

January is hard enough without dealing with all this uncertainty. I wish rafa would hurry up and win the ****ing league so I can sleep well at night again.

The consensus is we're not even competing now, and that's a horrible feeling. :rightlittlerayofsunshineshakey:

[Slammer]

Rotation is not the answer........tiredness is not the answer....out of form players is not the answer.....a stubborn bloody spanish manager is the answer to our problems..
Does Rafa have some sort of problem sleeping if he doesn't mess around with the team and formations?? Its really beginning to piss me off now....why the hell did we play what turned out to be a 4-5-1 against wigan at home???? Everytime we get some sort of rhythm going and build some sort of partnerships he goes and bloody changes it......Why????????? Why didn't we play 4-4-2 with Gerrard, Masher, Kewell and Beyanoun with Kuyt and Torres up front.....like we have done recently to some good effect? Its only bloody wigan we were playing not AC Milan or barcelona!

Sorry if this annoys people....but last night really pissed me off sitting freezing my bollocks off in the kop watching our master spanish tactician piss about with the lineup again and us getting a point against a far less superior team.....And Titus Bramble scored!!!! jeez can it get any worse!!

From now on if Rafa has got any sense he will pick his strongest lineup for every game and stop tinkering with bloody formations especially against so called weaker teams at home!

rant over time for a beer!

[tomasjj]

rotation is one thing, playing at home with 5 in midfield, two of which are holding central midfielders against a team like Wigan is cuntery.

Disagree, you are buying into an over simplistic kneejerkish analysis.

To me it looked like 2 holding mids to accommodate 3 attacking mids. In a 4231. Classic Rafa. People call it a 451 just to have a pop.

People spat their dummy out when they saw one striker in the lineup, and automatically thought that was a defensive lineup. I don't think it was. Rafa also explained the idea in the post match interview. Two proper wingers to stretch them, more space for Torres and SG to bomb into the box.

Besides, that "defensive" lineup of yours created by far enough chances to win by 3 goals but players shat themselves and couldnt bag sitters.