Some Flipping Perspective

[Sarb]

Right the title has gone this season. We all got excited after the start we had but now we're depressed as ****. Understandable really, but we were never really in a position to compete all the way...i think we all know that.

Right, we've made improvements no doubt about it. Yes Rafa has tinkered too much at times. However, a few points of note

1) First time we've bought a £20m player Torres - Pure Class. The rest of our buys are usually around the £10m or below mark

2) Manc ****e buy a couple of £15m+ players each season. This season, Nani, Anderson, (Tevez will cost around that). Hargreaves, Carrick etc

3) Chelsea (see point 2 above) spend shed loads on players and have basically bought the premiership

4) Right Arsenal...and Arsene Wenger. Hasn't bought the title granted. A class manager who has been at Arsenal for over 10 years and transformed the club from the grass roots. Now he is reaping the rewards

My point is Rafa has laid some good foundations. We've got some fantastic young players at the club. To an extent he has competed with the Mancs and Chavs and Arsenal even though he's not spent as much as them and hasn't had as much time as Fergie and Wenger.

We've got to see us being more competitive season on season and I think this season we've definitely competed more. I'm pissed at his tinkering yes, but I think we're moving in the right direction and are competing against the likes of Mancs and Chavs on a much smaller budget

[Tee]

Great post.

[FatTony]

Right the title has gone this season. We all got excited after the start we had but now we're depressed as ****. Understandable really, but we were never really in a position to compete all the way...i think we all know that.

Right, we've made improvements no doubt about it. Yes Rafa has tinkered too much at times. However, a few points of note

1) First time we've bought a £20m player Torres - Pure Class. The rest of our buys are usually around the £10m or below mark

2) Manc ****e buy a couple of £15m+ players each season. This season, Nani, Anderson, (Tevez will cost around that). Hargreaves, Carrick etc

3) Chelsea (see point 2 above) spend shed loads on players and have basically bought the premiership

4) Right Arsenal...and Arsene Wenger. Hasn't bought the title granted. A class manager who has been at Arsenal for over 10 years and transformed the club from the grass roots. Now he is reaping the rewards

My point is Rafa has laid some good foundations. We've got some fantastic young players at the club. To an extent he has competed with the Mancs and Chavs and Arsenal even though he's not spent as much as them and hasn't had as much time as Fergie and Wenger.

We've got to see us being more competitive season on season and I think this season we've definitely competed more. I'm pissed at his tinkering yes, but I think we're moving in the right direction and are competing against the likes of Mancs and Chavs on a much smaller budget

Didn't Wenger win it in his first season? A question not a statement BTW.

We've made improvements, yes, 4 points on last season after spending over £40M. We're currently looking as though we're going to be battling with Citeh and Everton for 4th spot...this is not progress. Our finances should mean we're scrapping for 3rd not 4th.

Everton, Citeh, Portsmouth and Villa are all doing as well as us whilst buying £10m or less type players, so what we're achieving in the league does not reflect well upon our expenditure. If it ultimately comes down to money, we should be a clear 3rd.

Wenger is a footballing genius. I have far more respect for him than Fergie or Maureen.

Chelsea aren't doing well, but you can't ignore the impact of losing a manager a couple of months into the new season.

When GH took over he implemented what was apparently the best academy setup in the UK. We should be reaping the rewards by now but we're not.

There are deep rooted problems IMO and if anything I can see things getting worse. Eriksson will have more to spend next year and Sven will have a year more premiership experience, Chelsea will have a decent new manager and more money, Manu will be spending £50m + as promised by their owners (no false promises there) and Arsenal will be going from strength to strength with that great squad of young talent and on the back of their financial situation now, probably more money to spend.

[Red Chilli]

Didn't Wenger win it in his first season? A question not a statement BTW.

First FULL season he won the double.

He arrived towards the end of a year so only got just over half a season in initially.

[carheex]

And to think, everyone laughed at the idea of Shinawatra buying into our club and was pleased that DIC emerged and even more pleased that the americans came on board. I wonder where we'd be if we'd been given the money that Sven has been given/will be given.......

At the end of the day it all comes down to cash in the modern game. We appear to have made a terrible business decision by bringing hicks and gillet. We should also have larger revenue streams coming into the club but we have always been very poorly marketed on that front. Despite our claims of greatness we have massively under achieved in the last 20 years, haven't taken advantage of situations when they've arisen, still have a poor stadium and are run quite amateurishly.

The one goods thing we've got going for us is the manager - and he's being hounded out by the media and fans as a scapegoat. Very shameful.

[ronniedrew]

And to think, everyone laughed at the idea of Shinawatra buying into our club and was pleased that DIC emerged and even more pleased that the americans came on board. I wonder where we'd be if we'd been given the money that Sven has been given/will be given.......

At the end of the day it all comes down to cash in the modern game. We appear to have made a terrible business decision by bringing hicks and gillet. We should also have larger revenue streams coming into the club but we have always been very poorly marketed on that front. Despite our claims of greatness we have massively under achieved in the last 20 years, haven't taken advantage of situations when they've arisen, still have a poor stadium and are run quite amateurishly.

The one goods thing we've got going for us is the manager - and he's being hounded out by the media and fans as a scapegoat. Very shameful.

just a wee small matter of building a new stadium, did City build theirs?

thats a lot of cash 600m total investment?

[Neil Young]

First FULL season he won the double.

He arrived towards the end of a year so only got just over half a season in initially.

You and Fat Tony are not comparing like with like. See my post in the Evolution thread.

[FatTony]

You and Fat Tony are not comparing like with like. See my post in the Evolution thread.

Alright dad I'll have a look now

[Neil Young]

Alright dad I'll have a look now

[Ataturk]

this season we are faultering at home to teams we should beat due to:

1. bizarre formations and team selection. 4-5-1 against a team that were only ever playing for a point. meanwhile we play 4-3-3 v arsenal. this is just crazy. we should play our best team and let others worry about that. then change it during the game. this is what cost us last night and what cost us against birmingham earlier on in the season.

2. individual performances being below par and poor attitude from several first teamers... kewell (last night), riise (most of the season), momo (most of the season), alonso (last night). interesting that gerrard remarked after we lost v marseile that 'we might have underestimated them'. i dont want to hear that about liverpool players. thats why we lost the title in 96, because we got lazy against coventry. this team is still nowhere near mounting a similar challenge and i think thats part of the reason why.

these are 2 major problems. thats my perspective.

problem 1 prevails because Rafa is stubborn.
problem 2 prevails because Rafa is not a good man manager. maybe this problem is coming to the fore this season because paco is no longer with the set up.

i think something needs to change. im not saying rafa must go. i cant think who i want to replace him and i ****ing love the man, for istanbul, for winning the war of minds with maureen in europe, for the fa cup in 06, for his mad footie maniac socks but i want to love him for number 19 and the more i ask myself if that will one day be a reality this season as it goes on the less sure of it i become.

[dww]

And to think, everyone laughed at the idea of Shinawatra buying into our club and was pleased that DIC emerged and even more pleased that the americans came on board. I wonder where we'd be if we'd been given the money that Sven has been given/will be given.......

At the end of the day it all comes down to cash in the modern game. We appear to have made a terrible business decision by bringing hicks and gillet. We should also have larger revenue streams coming into the club but we have always been very poorly marketed on that front. Despite our claims of greatness we have massively under achieved in the last 20 years, haven't taken advantage of situations when they've arisen, still have a poor stadium and are run quite amateurishly.

The one goods thing we've got going for us is the manager - and he's being hounded out by the media and fans as a scapegoat. Very shameful.

I've seen nothing to suggest that Shinawatra would be willing to fund the stadium we need in the long term. Have they spent more than us any way?

Currently we are in a period of transition and it has caused problems but I'm not sure we can accuse our owners of being amateurish until they have been here for at least a year or two.

I agree with you about the treatment of Rafa though.

[Dhav]

And to think, everyone laughed at the idea of Shinawatra buying into our club and was pleased that DIC emerged and even more pleased that the americans came on board. I wonder where we'd be if we'd been given the money that Sven has been given/will be given.......

At the end of the day it all comes down to cash in the modern game. We appear to have made a terrible business decision by bringing hicks and gillet. We should also have larger revenue streams coming into the club but we have always been very poorly marketed on that front. Despite our claims of greatness we have massively under achieved in the last 20 years, haven't taken advantage of situations when they've arisen, still have a poor stadium and are run quite amateurishly.

The one goods thing we've got going for us is the manager - and he's being hounded out by the media and fans as a scapegoat. Very shameful.

I think I agree with Carheex

[Dhav]

I've seen nothing to suggest that Shinawatra would be willing to fund the stadium we need in the long term. Have they spent more than us any way?

Currently we are in a period of transition and it has caused problems but I'm not sure we can accuse our owners of being amateurish until they have been here for at least a year or two.

I agree with you about the treatment of Rafa though.

I would say in certain aspects the way they've run the club does appear amateurish, the main case in point being the debacle over the new stadium.

IMO the handling of the Rafa feud, particularly publicly, has either been amateurish (if they do indeed back him and trust him for the long haul as it has resulted in undue speculation and pressure being put on the manager and team) or carefully orchestrated to either put pressure on Rafa or force him out the door.

[akjs123]

Good post. People easily forget how many injuries to key players we have already had in 6 months.

[dww]

I would say in certain aspects the way they've run the club does appear amateurish, the main case in point being the debacle over the new stadium.

IMO the handling of the Rafa feud, particularly publicly, has either been amateurish (if they do indeed back him and trust him for the long haul as it has resulted in undue speculation and pressure being put on the manager and team) or carefully orchestrated to either put pressure on Rafa or force him out the door.

See the thing is I don't think we can tell until something happens with the stadium whether thats true or not.

I also think that Rafa started the media nonsense and the failure to communicate at the start of a new venture could be put down to teething problems. I'm willing to accept that you & carheex may be proved right but right now I don't think there is any evidence you are and I think G&H deserve the benefit of the doubt.