The bottom line

[Monty]

I remember Charlie MS being livid after what appeared to be Rafa 'throwing' the Reading game to ensure qualification to the CL in the next game. At the time he had a point, but if what we are hearing is true about Rafa being likely to get the boot if we didn't qualify, if that is true, you can't really blame him for it, horrible prospect as it may seem. It was for the better good.

I'm just angry at the way this is all being played out in the media, it's just not the Liverpool way. Rafa needs the fans right now, talk of him leaving really should be out of bounds for us lot, as it 'indirectly' is a form of disrespect to him IMO anyway.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

I think it needs saying that no matter your view on Rafa, whether you think he is the bees knees, or you think he's useless, or something in between.....

......for as long as the Americans are in control, Rafa MUST stay.

Their reasons have nothing to do with football, they are looking for an excuse to get rid of him, and their idea of our manager for the next 5 years was someone who had never managed a club side in his life.

Let's forget all this Rafa bollocks and get behind him irrespective.

Anyone who has more doubts about Rafa than they do about the Americans need their head testing.

It's time to decide whose side you're on. Rafa Benitez or Hicks & Gillett. The choice should be obvious.

Here's the thing:

Let's say the Yanks do one, who's to say the next lot are going to be any better? For all we know they could be worse.

This is why I didn't want Moores to sell the club. And don't give me this "he had to sell the club bull****". Not having it. He, and we, took the easy way out, instead of showing some bottle and patience leaving Rafa to get on with trying to build this thing slowly but surely (as he's been doing since he got here). Look at Arsenal. It's possible.

So by trying to make this an us versus them (Rafa V Yanks) issue, we're being unnecessarily divisive with no hope of influencing the outcome of the club anymore.

I appreciate and agree with the sentiment Alun, but the method is no longer relevant. You think G+H paid any mind to those banners on the Kop last night? Did they ****. We volunteer our support through loyalty because it's important to us, and now we're in a situation where that loyalty is open to abuse. The club's been sold to businessmen, our history, tradition counts for nothing to these people. They don't care if it's 60,000 scousers/actual reds in the ground or 60,000 tourists, as long as they get the money. Trophies? Forget it, 4th place and the CL cash is good enough as long as there's a profit at the end of it.

So what if they sack Rafa, the horse has already bolted, we've lost, we're irrelevant now, the clubs ****ed.

Unless you can show me a set of Scouse/British based investors who are proper fans and who’d run the club to win trophies and genuinely be the best again.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

I remember Charlie MS being livid after what appeared to be Rafa 'throwing' the Reading game to ensure qualification to the CL in the next game. At the time he had a point, but if what we are hearing is true about Rafa being likely to get the boot if we didn't qualify, if that is true, you can't really blame him for it, horrible prospect as it may seem. It was for the better good.

I'm just angry at the way this is all being played out in the media, it's just not the Liverpool way. Rafa needs the fans right now, talk of him leaving really should be out of bounds for us lot, as it 'indirectly' is a form of disrespect for him IMO anyway.

But he still didn't have to whip Stevie lad off early. Sorry mate I'm just not having it.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that taking him off early helped the other 10 players out there beat Marseille, most of whom played against Reading? It's laughable.

I can understand why Rafa did it in the circumstances, but it was manifestly wrong.

[Jennings]

So many questions in your reply, Alun. I will do my best.

Firstly let me clarify my point. It was a generic point. Any manager is given a set of objectives, if he fails to deliver on these then remedial action is taken. In football this is usually his dismissal and subsequent replacement.
BTW - i don't think he has failed to deliver - but it is not my thoughts that count here.

How can it be irrespective of owners? That's just daft.

Surely you have to compare Rafa with the replacement.

Nope. You get someone who you believe will deliver your objectives.

What if the owners had a shortlist of Ian Dowie, Neil Warnock and Sam Allardyce?

Would you still say Rafa out.

If he failed his objectives he would have to leave.

I have answeredthe second bit below (quite vaguely) .

And if you think that's far fetched well every one of them has more managerial experience than the guy we nearly ended up with.

I understand your point here. I cannot fathom why they thought Klinsmann could deliver. However it is difficult for me to speculate on what plans they discussed.

Rafa must stay, unless you think he's so bad that you'll have ANYONE but him. And you can't think he's THAT bad.

I don't think Rafa is bad. I love him. I hope he delivers, just like I hoped Houllier would. I think Rafa will find what is needed to win the league and do it. I hope he gets much more time.

Do you really trust these two to select a world class manager. Or a yes man.

I don't know them well enough to answer that one. Making a billion dollars can't be easy. They must have had to select successful managers to run their enterprises in the past. They ****ed up royally here. Let's hope they have learned.

I don't feel that I need to choose between the owners or Rafa. I choose Liverpool.

Reading over my points, I felt it sounds a little patronising. I know from your previous posts that you are an intelligent guy - so please don't take them as patronising - that is not the spirit they are intended.

[Monty]

But he still didn't have to whip Stevie lad off early. Sorry mate I'm just not having it.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that taking him off early helped the other 10 players out there beat Marseille, most of whom played against Reading? It's laughable.

I can understand why Rafa did it in the circumstances, but it was manifestly wrong.

We'll have to agree to disagree mate. I don't want to hijack this thread with the Reading game debate. That said, it's all If's but's and maybe's, what if Stevie/Torres/Jamie (3 players who didn't complete the 90 mins if I recall) had got injured and couldn't play the next game? It doesn't bear thinking about.

One thing I hope we can agree on, is that calling for Rafa's head during troubled times like these is pointless. We need to show unity and a bit of respect to a fella who has shown how to act with dignity in the Liverpool manner.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

We'll have to agree to disagree mate. I don't want to hijack this thread with the Reading game debate. That said, it's all If's but's and maybe's, what if Stevie/Torres/Jamie (3 players who didn't complete the 90 mins if I recall) had got injured and couldn't play the next game? It doesn't bear thinking about.

One thing I hope we can agree on, is that calling for Rafa's head during troubled times like these is pointless. We need to show unity and a bit of respect to a fella who has shown how to act with dignity in the Liverpool manner.

Agree on your last point.

I started a ridiculous kneejerk thread at the weekend saying he should go. How bad does that look now?

Okay I took it back, but still the only thing we can do now is get right behind the team and Rafa, that's where we can still do our part.

As for the ownership of the club? Well it's out of our hands now. I can't see the yanks walking away just because they're unpopular.

[purpleaki]

I like this thread title.

[desertscouser]

I like this thread title.

Purpleaki

Felt any young boy's muscles recently??

[purpleaki]

Purpleaki

Felt any young boy's muscles recently??

[alunevans]

So many questions in your reply, Alun. I will do my best.

Firstly let me clarify my point. It was a generic point. Any manager is given a set of objectives, if he fails to deliver on these then remedial action is taken. In football this is usually his dismissal and subsequent replacement.
BTW - i don't think he has failed to deliver - but it is not my thoughts that count here.


Nope. You get someone who you believe will deliver your objectives.


If he failed his objectives he would have to leave.

I have answeredthe second bit below (quite vaguely) .

I understand your point here. I cannot fathom why they thought Klinsmann could deliver. However it is difficult for me to speculate on what plans they discussed.



I don't think Rafa is bad. I love him. I hope he delivers, just like I hoped Houllier would. I think Rafa will find what is needed to win the league and do it. I hope he gets much more time.



I don't know them well enough to answer that one. Making a billion dollars can't be easy. They must have had to select successful managers to run their enterprises in the past. They ****ed up royally here. Let's hope they have learned.

I don't feel that I need to choose between the owners or Rafa. I choose Liverpool.

Reading over my points, I felt it sounds a little patronising. I know from your previous posts that you are an intelligent guy - so please don't take them as patronising - that is not the spirit they are intended.

Not at all patronising