I know he's a blue nose but.....

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

Spot on. What he says is absolutely right about how Liverpool traditional conducted business, and how these two cunts are so out of touch with the Liverpool Way. What especially rung true to me was Ged's departure. No ignominy, no vitriol, just a dignified goodbye. Contrast with the Rafa situation and you see that all these two clowns have sought to do is belittle and humiliate our manager, tarnishing the club's reputation and image in the process. As far as I'm concerned the trust can never be regained after what these two have done. They need to get the **** out of our club before they do it any more damamge.

Yes but any new foreign owners know **** all about "The Liverpool Way".

I'm in no way defending them here, the "The Liverpool Way" we all know died when Moores sold the club, but in truth it was on it's death bed before it was finally put down with the takeover.

What about that spineless turncoat cunt Noel White - anonymously at first - having a pop at Rafa through the media 2 years ago?

It was always going to end up this way when the Sky brought their "Football is entertainment" nonsense to the masses. Instead of football being part of our culture, salt of the earth of the working man, it's now seen as business venture to extort us, it's also brought halfwit V-neck wearing mediocres to football. Wish they'd **** off back to the Golf course.

I'd really like all these foreign owners to do one out of our football. Their money isn't welcome, that goes for DIC, Yanks, Russians whoever, whether it's as a business or plaything. **** off.

[Morten_nogamst_Pedersen]

Yes but any new foreign owners know **** all about "The Liverpool Way".

I'm in no way defending them here, the "The Liverpool Way" we all know died when Moores sold the club, but in truth it was on it's death bed before it was finally put down with the takeover.

What about that spineless turncoat cunt Noel White - anonymously at first - having a pop at Rafa through the media 2 years ago?

It was always going to end up this way when the Sky brought their "Football is entertainment" nonsense to the masses. Instead of football being part of our culture, salt of the earth of the working man, it's now seen as business venture to extort us, it's also brought halfwit V-neck wearing mediocres to football. Wish they'd **** off back to the Golf course.

I'd really like all these foreign owners to do one out of our football. Their money isn't welcome, that goes for DIC, Yanks, Russians whoever, whether it's as a business or plaything. **** off.

Yeah lets go back to 1990. Lets just not sell the TV rights to Sky and we know everything we've done wrong the last dozen and a half years.
Hell, we'll have at least 30 1st divison championships before 2008.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

Right now, any debates about whether Rafa can or cannot win us the league should be moot. There are bigger issues to deal with, namely the fact that a man who has sacrificed a lot for us, who has achieved so much for us, has been betrayed and stabbed in the back, and we need to stand behind him and show him our support. We need to fight to ensure he gets the time and money he deserves to realise his ambitions and plans for the club.

Disagree.

I think it's important to serpatrate the two issues myself.

Rafa shouldn't get a grace period out of sympathy because the owners have behaved like ****houses.

The manager and team still have to get results, to me that's the bottom line.

To me it's a separate issue to what going on with the owners, and that depends on your opinion of them. If you want them gone, fine, but don't bring Rafa into it.

He's just employee of the club, albeit an important one.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

Yeah lets go back to 1990. Lets just not sell the TV rights to Sky and we know everything we've done wrong the last dozen and a half years.
Hell, we'll have at least 30 1st divison championships before 2008.

Aren't we a pedantic ****er.

That wasn't my point at all.

People are complaining about the new ownership, well, this is apparently the route we had to go down to "compete", and we're all complaining about things not being done "The Liverpool Way". Well I'm sorry but this is what you get when you sell out. Greedy charlatan cunts looking to milk us for a profit. Do you honestly think any of these rich foreigners care about the fans? Do they bollocks.

This is the price we've paid. I find it admirable that we as a fan group, by and large, are telling the yanks to do one. I know it's mostly to do with what's happened with the gaffer, but it reasonates with me for a completely different reason. I never wanted the ****ers or their money in the first place, same goes for the ****in Arabs.

[Morten_nogamst_Pedersen]

Aren't we a pedantic ****er.

That wasn't my point at all.

People are complaining about the new ownership, well, this is apparently the route we had to go down to "compete", and we're all complaining about things not being done "The Liverpool Way". Well I'm sorry but this is what you get when you sell out. Greedy charlatan cunts looking to milk us for a profit. Do you honestly think any of these rich foreigners care about the fans? Do they bollocks.

This is the price we've paid. I find it admirable that we as a fan group, by and large, are telling the yanks to do one. I know it's mostly to do with what's happened with the gaffer, but it reasonates with me for a completely different reason. I never wanted the ****ers or their money in the first place, same goes for the ****in Arabs.

We can always hope!
Seriously, you are very cynic about it. If lucky you can get owners who are decent humans and respect the values of purchased club.
Don't hear lots of complaints from Aston Villa fans BTW.

[Dhav]

Disagree.

I think it's important to serpatrate the two issues myself.

Rafa shouldn't get a grace period out of sympathy because the owners have behaved like ****houses.

The manager and team still have to get results, to me that's the bottom line.

To me it's a separate issue to what going on with the owners, and that depends on your opinion of them. If you want them gone, fine, but don't bring Rafa into it.

He's just employee of the club, albeit an important one.

Fair enough, you're treating the two events as separate and independent, I feel it is impossible to treat each one in isolation. As far as I'm concerned, they're interdependent and linked.

I know people will say our form dovetailed after the international break proceeding the Derby home game, people will Pako's absence took its toll. Those things may be true. But it is my contention that our form has really suffered since this speculation surrounding Rafa's job has heightened. Before the Reading game we were unbeaten, going into that game Rafa knew that while losing our first league wouldn't be fatal, losing the CL game against Marseille would very likely cost him his job. Look recently at the attitude of the players on the pitch who have looked distracted, indifferent, like the weight of the world is on their shoulders. Maestro has said his source reckons the team spirit in the dressing room is shot. Hansen says boardroom disputes concerning the manager affects players. The owners seem to be making a concerted effort to put as much pressure on the manager as possible. If this is not their deliberate aim, then at the very least this is the effect their actions are having. The constant speculation, the media glare, it must take its toll, and at the very least it is distracting and may affect the focus and concentration of the players and the manager. No stability, only upheaval. You may say they are professionals, that they should be above this, but the simple fact is they are human, they get demotivated and lose their focus like the rest of us do.

In these circumstances, where Rafa is fighting the odds and with the deck stacked against him, I am really not sure how you expect him to do the very best that he can to get the best out of his players. The conditions are not right to allow him to do the best job he can. I'm not sure how you can judge him and isolate these and ignore these factors and how they impinge on his job.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

Fair enough, you're treating the two events as separate and independent, I feel it is impossible to treat each one in isolation. As far as I'm concerned, they're interdependent and linked.

I know people will say our form dovetailed after the international break proceeding the Derby home game, people will Pako's absence took its toll. Those things may be true. But it is my contention that our form has really suffered since this speculation surrounding Rafa's job has heightened. Before the Reading game we were unbeaten, going into that game Rafa knew that while losing our first league wouldn't be fatal, losing the CL game against Marseille would very likely cost him his job. Look recently at the attitude of the players on the pitch who have looked distracted, indifferent, like the weight of the world is on their shoulders. Maestro has said his source reckons the team spirit in the dressing room is shot. Hansen says boardroom disputes concerning the manager affects players. The owners seem to be making a concerted effort to put as much pressure on the manager as possible. If this is not their deliberate aim, then at the very least this is the effect their actions are having. The constant speculation, the media glare, it must take its toll, and at the very least it is distracting and may affect the focus and concentration of the players and the manager. No stability, only upheaval. You may say they are professionals, that they should be above this, but the simple fact is they are human, they get demotivated and lose their focus like the rest of us do.

In these circumstances, where Rafa is fighting the odds and with the deck stacked against him, I am really not sure how you expect him to do the very best that he can to get the best out of his players. The conditions are not right to allow him to do the best job he can. I'm not sure how you can judge him and isolate these and ignore these factors and how they impinge on his job.

I understand your viewpoint, honestly I do.

But I'll ask again; what can we possibly achieve, as a group of fans, by telling the Yanks to do one?

As I said above, I agree with consensus opinion of getting shut of them, it resonates with me, but not because they wanted Klinsmann, or anything they have or haven't done. I want them to go because they don't share the same philosophy as us, it's not part of their identity, their culture, they're businessmen, they aren't fans, and they’re here to make money, as much as possible. DIC, yanks, Russian whoever, this is the way it is now.

So what happens if the next lot come in and do something similarly unpopular? Are we going to ask them to **** off as well, and hope the next lot of chancers are ****in silly enough to throw money at us for nothing in return and do as we tell them? That's the problem with the club now, we no longer have a say. It no longer belongs to us.

As for Rafa, he's paid to do his job, I understand he's been under pressure, but then this is LFC, he should be. Now of course it's speculative how much pressure he's been under from the owners (for example saying he'd have definitely been sacked had we lost to Marseille, pure speculation) but that doesn't excuse his performance as manager this season. It's been thoroughly underwhelmening, and certain tactics, team selections etc can in no way be attributed to the boardroom situation. That's a kop out. I could outright excuse the team performances this season if we were making significant progress in previous years (I'm talking about the league specifically here) but we haven't. At some point you've got to stop making excuses and get on with it. It's the same for everyone in every walk of life.

Now of course if it came to a choice of Rafa or the owners it's our manager everytime. But I support LFC, and everyone’s got to do their job, including the manager.

[StevieJ]

Some great arguments in this thread.

I think a lot depends on where the investors see the value in the club. My worry is that both the Americans and DIC see the real value of the club lying in the stadium, and not in on-going profits generated through the performance on the pitch.

For both parties I suggest that Champions League involvement is pretty high up on the agenda as this has a significant impact on the bottom line each season but in x number of years the real money will be made on selling a piece of real estate. Between the two (and assuming some dark horse does not come in), I suspect DIC would be the better bet simply because they have enormous pride in their projects and like to see each brand as being the gold standard in that field. This does not mean that they would not do things we as fans see as out of order. I would also not be surprised if it was DIC representatives that have been talking to Maureen (if he has been approached at all), rather than the Americans. This may explain why his agent feels he can genuinly deny speaking to any clubs - DIC don't yet own one!

But I agree with Dhavlos, you can't separate the off field problems from the performances on the pitch. To me it is clear that Rafa found out about the Klinsmann approach back in November (hence his strop) and his anxiety and other rumours would have affected the players concentration. I suspect Rafa also decided that the only way to survive this episode was to make the owners out to be failing in their promises to him and the fans, which in turn would mean they would publicly back him. Once he had enough vocal support it made it much more difficult for the owners to sack him mid season and all he can do now is wait and see what happens.

I desperately hope his ploy pays off because I think he is an outstanding Manager. Sure some of the team formations seem strange at times but show me a manager who doesn't make odd decisions. He has bought a belief back to this club and is making huge improvements behind the scenes. The investment in high quality youth players alone is a reason to keep him. His project is still only young and it needs time to mature.

[Dhav]

I understand your viewpoint, honestly I do.

But I'll ask again; what can we possibly achieve, as a group of fans, by telling the Yanks to do one?

As I said above, I agree with consensus opinion of getting shut of them, it resonates with me, but not because they wanted Klinsmann, or anything they have or haven't done. I want them to go because they don't share the same philosophy as us, it's not part of their identity, their culture, they're businessmen, they aren't fans, and they’re here to make money, as much as possible. DIC, yanks, Russian whoever, this is the way it is now.

So what happens if the next lot come in and do something similarly unpopular? Are we going to ask them to **** off as well, and hope the next lot of chancers are ****in silly enough to throw money at us for nothing in return and do as we tell them? That's the problem with the club now, we no longer have a say. It no longer belongs to us.

As for Rafa, he's paid to do his job, I understand he's been under pressure, but then this is LFC, he should be. Now of course it's speculative how much pressure he's been under from the owners (for example saying he'd have definitely been sacked had we lost to Marseille, pure speculation) but that doesn't excuse his performance as manager this season. It's been thoroughly underwhelmening, and certain tactics, team selections etc can in no way be attributed to the boardroom situation. That's a kop out. I could outright excuse the team performances this season if we were making significant progress in previous years (I'm talking about the league specifically here) but we haven't. At some point you've got to stop making excuses and get on with it. It's the same for everyone in every walk of life.

Now of course if it came to a choice of Rafa or the owners it's our manager everytime. But I support LFC, and everyone’s got to do their job, including the manager.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying and that the club was forever changed when the scouse heartbeat in the control room of the club was removed. I think if you have pretensions of being a global club then something like that is almost inevitable. You just have to hope that the new owners uphold the traditional values of the club and do the best they can in running the club in the manner in which it is accustomed. At the end of the day, if they don't we as fans have to let them know we are dissatisfied, we have to let them know that they can't run roughshod over the club and get away with it, we can't accept the very fabric of LFC to be tarnished. As fans I believe there is a lot we can to make a forceful point, but it would require commitment, dedication and sacrifice, ie boycotting the ground, merchandise etc. We're their customers at the end of the day, the depend on us to make their money. if we hit them in the pocket then their position becomes precarious. I know it's easier said than done, I know it may come at a cost, namely the detriment of the team, but it's the only to make a point that will hit them where it matters most to them, namely the pocket.

As for Rafa and the pressure, yes I agree with you to some extent, it is par for the course at a big club, but IMO this pressure is artificial, engineered, it's there deliberately designed to make his job tougher for him. That kind of pressure should be reserved for someone on the brink who is doing an extremely poor job, not someone doing a good job, as Rafa is. I agree at times it's not been good enough from Rafa, but the boardroom shenanigans have seriously exacerbated things. Saying he'd be sacked if we lost to Marseille is speculative, but given Hicks' choice of words, which were extremely suggestive, I would say speculation along these lines could be classed as an educated or informed guess, having a reasonable probability of being accurate.

Some great arguments in this thread.

I think a lot depends on where the investors see the value in the club. My worry is that both the Americans and DIC see the real value of the club lying in the stadium, and not in on-going profits generated through the performance on the pitch.

For both parties I suggest that Champions League involvement is pretty high up on the agenda as this has a significant impact on the bottom line each season but in x number of years the real money will be made on selling a piece of real estate. Between the two (and assuming some dark horse does not come in), I suspect DIC would be the better bet simply because they have enormous pride in their projects and like to see each brand as being the gold standard in that field. This does not mean that they would not do things we as fans see as out of order. I would also not be surprised if it was DIC representatives that have been talking to Maureen (if he has been approached at all), rather than the Americans. This may explain why his agent feels he can genuinly deny speaking to any clubs - DIC don't yet own one!

But I agree with Dhavlos, you can't separate the off field problems from the performances on the pitch. To me it is clear that Rafa found out about the Klinsmann approach back in November (hence his strop) and his anxiety and other rumours would have affected the players concentration. I suspect Rafa also decided that the only way to survive this episode was to make the owners out to be failing in their promises to him and the fans, which in turn would mean they would publicly back him. Once he had enough vocal support it made it much more difficult for the owners to sack him mid season and all he can do now is wait and see what happens.

I desperately hope his ploy pays off because I think he is an outstanding Manager. Sure some of the team formations seem strange at times but show me a manager who doesn't make odd decisions. He has bought a belief back to this club and is making huge improvements behind the scenes. The investment in high quality youth players alone is a reason to keep him. His project is still only young and it needs time to mature.

Good post mate. Welcome aboard

[Red_Polo]

Yes but any new foreign owners know **** all about "The Liverpool Way".

I'm in no way defending them here, the "The Liverpool Way" we all know died when Moores sold the club, but in truth it was on it's death bed before it was finally put down with the takeover.

What about that spineless turncoat cunt Noel White - anonymously at first - having a pop at Rafa through the media 2 years ago?

He got kicked to the curb for it thought didn't he? Not only would the current owners allow that kind of ****, they've done much worse themselves and the only thing they see wrong with it is in terms of PR.

[loco_law]

Not going to lie to you guys, this thread is worthy of the Library.


This is far and wide the best debate on this topic that I've seen on here, and the whole thing was kicked off by a Bluenose.

I am in full agreeance that the off-field issues carry on to the field. 100%

It would be impossible for any of us to see the company that we go to work for slated in the press day in and day out. Friends start asking you questions, and you get annoyed with each person you know constantly digging and prying for what the real issues are, and then seeing the look of disbelief on their face when you tell them there isn't a problem.

How many times can Stevie tell his buddies that there is no issue at the club without him getting irate over the mere sound of the question itself?

It's a known psychological truth that repetition creates fact in people's minds. If it's said enough, it's believed.

It's virtually impossible for anyone to go to work every day with this kind of abuse and turmoil hanging over their heads without it playing a part in the way they do their job. FFS, all of this crap in the press effects MY job on a day to day basis and I live in Canada!!!!

Rafa is Aegenius.

[Revo]

I understand your viewpoint, honestly I do.

But I'll ask again; what can we possibly achieve, as a group of fans, by telling the Yanks to do one?
As I said above, I agree with consensus opinion of getting shut of them, it resonates with me, but not because they wanted Klinsmann, or anything they have or haven't done. I want them to go because they don't share the same philosophy as us, it's not part of their identity, their culture, they're businessmen, they aren't fans, and they’re here to make money, as much as possible. DIC, yanks, Russian whoever, this is the way it is now.

So what happens if the next lot come in and do something similarly unpopular? Are we going to ask them to **** off as well, and hope the next lot of chancers are ****in silly enough to throw money at us for nothing in return and do as we tell them? That's the problem with the club now, we no longer have a say. It no longer belongs to us.

As for Rafa, he's paid to do his job, I understand he's been under pressure, but then this is LFC, he should be. Now of course it's speculative how much pressure he's been under from the owners (for example saying he'd have definitely been sacked had we lost to Marseille, pure speculation) but that doesn't excuse his performance as manager this season. It's been thoroughly underwhelmening, and certain tactics, team selections etc can in no way be attributed to the boardroom situation. That's a kop out. I could outright excuse the team performances this season if we were making significant progress in previous years (I'm talking about the league specifically here) but we haven't. At some point you've got to stop making excuses and get on with it. It's the same for everyone in every walk of life.

Now of course if it came to a choice of Rafa or the owners it's our manager everytime. But I support LFC, and everyone’s got to do their job, including the manager.

Believe it or not Niall it sets precedent to the Americanos. If we collectively stand together, any debt that may be thrown on the club will be long thought out by these guys. Any future ticket price hikes will also be a point of contention. Whatever Hicks was aiming for with that interview has set the owners back quite a bit tbh. Sacking Rafa today would also set the club back years. What about the next manager? How could he or anyone ever fully trust Tom Hicks now? Recent results obviously stand for themselves and it simply has not been good enough no one can honestly say otherwise. The onus on form though has now been shifted and quite rightly so to defending one of our own. We have cried tears of joy with Rafa and we have pulled out our hair out with some of the mind boggeling decisions he has made, but whatever side of the fence you may be on, it is anti scouse and anti liverpool to abandon the man after such a blatant disreguard by Tom Hicks.
You may find this a little bit odd with what i say here but Family comes first and foremost above all. Rafa is the head of our family and if he cant be treated with honour and dignity by Tom Hicks then how are his siblings on the pitch ever going to get it right? You will argue that they are paid professionals and they get paid not to get involved. Id argue that they are as human as the rest of us and a loss of form as a team is very understandable when daddy has been undermined by the bosses who actually have no idea about football or our culture.
I know you have not been happy for a while, deep down who really is with **** performances we have recently displayed but if we dont defend this man to the hilt, like i said, the Americanos will have set their own precadent and it would not be a very good thing for the future of Liverpool Football Club

[loco_law]

preach on

[WILF]

Believe it or not Niall it sets precedent to the Americanos. If we collectively stand together, any debt that may be thrown on the club will be long thought out by these guys. Any future ticket price hikes will also be a point of contention. Whatever Hicks was aiming for with that interview has set the owners back quite a bit tbh. Sacking Rafa today would also set the club back years. What about the next manager? How could he or anyone ever fully trust Tom Hicks now? Recent results obviously stand for themselves and it simply has not been good enough no one can honestly say otherwise. The onus on form though has now been shifted and quite rightly so to defending one of our own. We have cried tears of joy with Rafa and we have pulled out our hair out with some of the mind boggeling decisions he has made, but whatever side of the fence you may be on, it is anti scouse and anti liverpool to abandon the man after such a blatant disreguard by Tom Hicks.
You may find this a little bit odd with what i say here but Family comes first and foremost above all. Rafa is the head of our family and if he cant be treated with honour and dignity by Tom Hicks then how are his siblings on the pitch ever going to get it right? You will argue that they are paid professionals and they get paid not to get involved. Id argue that they are as human as the rest of us and a loss of form as a team is very understandable when daddy has been undermined by the bosses who actually have no idea about football or our culture.
I know you have not been happy for a while, deep down who really is with **** performances we have recently displayed but if we dont defend this man to the hilt, like i said, the Americanos will have set their own precadent and it would not be a very good thing for the future of Liverpool Football Club

Excellent post

[tomasjj]

Believe it or not Niall it sets precedent to the Americanos. If we collectively stand together, any debt that may be thrown on the club will be long thought out by these guys. Any future ticket price hikes will also be a point of contention. Whatever Hicks was aiming for with that interview has set the owners back quite a bit tbh. Sacking Rafa today would also set the club back years. What about the next manager? How could he or anyone ever fully trust Tom Hicks now? Recent results obviously stand for themselves and it simply has not been good enough no one can honestly say otherwise. The onus on form though has now been shifted and quite rightly so to defending one of our own. We have cried tears of joy with Rafa and we have pulled out our hair out with some of the mind boggeling decisions he has made, but whatever side of the fence you may be on, it is anti scouse and anti liverpool to abandon the man after such a blatant disreguard by Tom Hicks.
You may find this a little bit odd with what i say here but Family comes first and foremost above all. Rafa is the head of our family and if he cant be treated with honour and dignity by Tom Hicks then how are his siblings on the pitch ever going to get it right? You will argue that they are paid professionals and they get paid not to get involved. Id argue that they are as human as the rest of us and a loss of form as a team is very understandable when daddy has been undermined by the bosses who actually have no idea about football or our culture.
I know you have not been happy for a while, deep down who really is with **** performances we have recently displayed but if we dont defend this man to the hilt, like i said, the Americanos will have set their own precadent and it would not be a very good thing for the future of Liverpool Football Club

Again, top post Revo.

Always speak up when someone attempts to **** with you or someone you love.