Rafa...

[Howard_lfc]

Hmmm not so sure about that, if it wasnt for all the **** with the Yanks he would be getting slaughterd.

Certainly a lot of people where i sit on the Kop have lost confidence in him.

Sad but true Dougie.

[dww]

Possibly, because it does seem as if Rafa more often than not over the last season and a bit wants to go with one out and out striker (Torres) then people playing off him - Kuyt or Voronin for the most part this season.

Some people call this a 4-2-3-1 type of formation, something similar to what he used at Valencia, but this is where my gripe is with Rafa's approach to the Premiership. Too often for me this becomes congested in midfield because the players he picks in the "3" tend not to be natural wide men, always cutting infield and clogging it up which leads to no space to shoot or having to pull off inch-perfect short passes to get through the massed ranks of the opposition. It's also true that Kuyt, if played in the middle of that three, ends up dropping deep into midfield to leave the striker even more isolated.

Personally I'd much rather see us play 4-4-2 with Torres + Crouch or Babel up front and some proper wing play that keeps an opponent stretched with crosses coming into the box. Far too often this season we've either not had enough bodies in the box due to Kuyt / Voronin dropping deep or ended up trying to drive through the middle of defences.

I agree we need to stretch teams more often and that at times the players we have problems doing that in a 4-2-3-1 formation. However I think at times it has worked well in the past for us when Gerrard was willing to start out on the right and either Garcia or Kewell intelligently swapping with him.

For me the problem has been the intelligence of the movement of the wide players and a lack of pace. Kewell has offered width but never looked like troubling the opposition near the box. For me the most successful wide players in the PL in recent years have mixed up wing play with cutting inside (for example Hleb, Rosicky, Ronaldo, Duff, Robben) and it is the uncertainty in the oppositions mind which is part of their effectiveness. Our players are too predictable - these days Kewell offers nothing but width and a lack of pace, Pennant adds pace to that but again no threat inside. I think Babel has the ingredients of the player to do this job for us but he doesn't seem the greatest decision maker. Benayoun is the closest to what I feel we need but for me this season he has not quite nailed doing the role at a top team when defenders pay him more attention - maybe this will take time, neither Hleb nor Rosicky settled immediately at Arsenal. He also naturally favours playing narrow which is the wrong side of the balance to counter the other failings of the team as you mentioned them.

I also think that in the deep role Voronin and Kuyt lack the necessary guile. Ideally we need someone like rooney who keeps the opposition hemmed in but also contributes assists and goals. I think Kuyt can offer more in this mould but his confidence is shot and he does drop too deep for me (although the same was said of Rooney on occasion in the last few years but he is quicker and ultimately more talented).

[Exiled_red]

not much, our form has been poor for quite a while now, we only scraped throuhg teh champions leagues etc

We're still not sure how long things have been going on behind the scenes, Rafa got confrontational with Hicks in the summer about making transfers, it has only come out in the last couple of months but we don't know how long it was brewing for

[alunevans]

Crouch didn't start Man U at home last season, that was another cameo from the bench when he got 10 minutes and still caused more problems than Kuyt.

We ended 2005-2006 with 9 straight league wins and then a Cup win. Momentum. Crouchy at the fulcrum of the attack, not prolific but doing the job and us winning those games despite a pretty average strike force of Fowler, Nando, Crouch and Cisse. He had a decent World Cup despite being given limited chances by another manager who had his favourites (in Owen and Rooney) and did everything possible to get them on the pitch, regardless of their fitness or suitability for the game. It's widely accepted that Sven fkd up picking Rooney on his own against Portugal, allowing him to get booted around the pitch until he snapped with nobody to play off or share the load.

The problems for me comes with what Rafa did in Summer 2006 which, as we can now say, was a waste of time and money in terms of lasting impact for the club as not a single player we bought then is still around having a regular positive influence on the team.

If you look at the start of 2006-2007 Crouchy was on fire. He had an impact coming off the Bench against Haifa, I think he got a flick on the ball to Gonzo to score the winner, scored the winner in the Community Shield, scored for England against Greece, scored away against Haifa, scored home against West Ham, scored against Andorra and then the winner away to Macedonia. Then came the Derby when we picked a very odd side with no pace and some defensive howlers lead to a defeat.

At that point Crouchy, who had scored 6 in 8 starts, is benched by Rafa as he seeks to go with Bellamy & Kuyt for a few games. We fail to score against PSV, we lose to Chelsea, then we have a couple of decent results. He doesn't start any of those games. He comes back into the side and bags a couple against Galatasaray, including that wonderful overhead kick, but is immediately benched for the Bolton game which we lose. He comes back in and does okay against Blackburn, then scores the winner against Bordeaux, but it is then reported in the papers that he will not start against Utd. He doesn't and we lose 2-0 with an inept 4-6-0 formation spearheaded by Kuyt.

Crouch returns to the starting line-up and we win the next 4 he starts, only to go to Arsenal and play with Gonzalez and Zenden in midfield, losing the game 3-0. Crouch is benched, not Kuyt, and we go to Boro and have a dismal 0-0 draw. Crouch comes back in and we start to pick up again.

Later on in the season Crouch is out with an injury, he comes back and bags the hat-trick against Arsenal, scores against PSV, sets up Arbeloa against Reading, scores against PSV again, then is "rested" for Man City away where we go 4-6-0 again with Kuyt and fail to beat a team that didn't score at home for over 4 months prior to our visit. In comes Crouch again and we win a couple before dropping him for Chelsea away in the Champions League, which we lose. After that Crouch's only start is home to Chelsea, a game we won as you will recall, this being his only start in the final month of our season, culminating in his sub appearance in the Athens final.

Last season when Crouch started we won over 75% of our games. When he didn't start we won 36%. The season before that ratio was not as high, but still pretty good, above Rafa's win percentage overall, and thats with him having a run of 24hrs without scoring for us.

Now it doesn't take a math genius to see how that suggests starting with Crouch is a GOOD THING. And that is without a player of Fernando Torres' calibre to partner him, instead having a Morientes, Cisse, Fowler, Kuyt or Bellamy.

Crouch is clearly not the guy to lead the attacking line for any title challenging side, for that you have Torres. But he should be the guy playing alongside him more often than not, sharing the load, being an outlet, allowing Torres to do things other than challenge giant centre-halfs for balls from deep.

The difference between Crouch and Kuyt is fairly simple. For Crouch generally you point to games where he didn't contribute to things as being the exception, rather than the rule. For Kuyt it is the reverse.

Awesome post mate. Says it all. It's pretty indisputable and I'm convinced that just that one change would have resulted in several more points on the board for Liverpool this term.

Rafa's persistence with his forward line selection shoots himself in the foot. We'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable in my view if he just did the obvious and played Crouch and Torres as his strike partnership.

[Skillz]

Awesome post mate. Says it all. It's pretty indisputable and I'm convinced that just that one change would have resulted in several more points on the board for Liverpool this term.

Rafa's persistence with his forward line selection shoots himself in the foot. We'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable in my view if he just did the obvious and played Crouch and Torres as his strike partnership.

Although on all the early evidence most thought the Kuyt/Torres partnership was the best.

Hindsight is a........

[bigfooty]

I think that was more down to Torres doing his thing than Kuyt's performances. Everyone kind of get swept up in the "omg Torres really is that good" hype, along with the unbeaten run that we had going (even though we were dropping points on the run).

[Jaymo]

saturday, the whole ground, like usual: RAAAFA RAFAEL, RAAAFA RAFAEL.... not too fast, a nice steady pace, at the top of yer voice.. lets show him what he means to us.

[StevieG08]

Crouch didn't start Man U at home last season, that was another cameo from the bench when he got 10 minutes and still caused more problems than Kuyt.

We ended 2005-2006 with 9 straight league wins and then a Cup win. Momentum. Crouchy at the fulcrum of the attack, not prolific but doing the job and us winning those games despite a pretty average strike force of Fowler, Nando, Crouch and Cisse. He had a decent World Cup despite being given limited chances by another manager who had his favourites (in Owen and Rooney) and did everything possible to get them on the pitch, regardless of their fitness or suitability for the game. It's widely accepted that Sven fkd up picking Rooney on his own against Portugal, allowing him to get booted around the pitch until he snapped with nobody to play off or share the load.

The problems for me comes with what Rafa did in Summer 2006 which, as we can now say, was a waste of time and money in terms of lasting impact for the club as not a single player we bought then is still around having a regular positive influence on the team.

If you look at the start of 2006-2007 Crouchy was on fire. He had an impact coming off the Bench against Haifa, I think he got a flick on the ball to Gonzo to score the winner, scored the winner in the Community Shield, scored for England against Greece, scored away against Haifa, scored home against West Ham, scored against Andorra and then the winner away to Macedonia. Then came the Derby when we picked a very odd side with no pace and some defensive howlers lead to a defeat.

At that point Crouchy, who had scored 6 in 8 starts, is benched by Rafa as he seeks to go with Bellamy & Kuyt for a few games. We fail to score against PSV, we lose to Chelsea, then we have a couple of decent results. He doesn't start any of those games. He comes back into the side and bags a couple against Galatasaray, including that wonderful overhead kick, but is immediately benched for the Bolton game which we lose. He comes back in and does okay against Blackburn, then scores the winner against Bordeaux, but it is then reported in the papers that he will not start against Utd. He doesn't and we lose 2-0 with an inept 4-6-0 formation spearheaded by Kuyt.

Crouch returns to the starting line-up and we win the next 4 he starts, only to go to Arsenal and play with Gonzalez and Zenden in midfield, losing the game 3-0. Crouch is benched, not Kuyt, and we go to Boro and have a dismal 0-0 draw. Crouch comes back in and we start to pick up again.

Later on in the season Crouch is out with an injury, he comes back and bags the hat-trick against Arsenal, scores against PSV, sets up Arbeloa against Reading, scores against PSV again, then is "rested" for Man City away where we go 4-6-0 again with Kuyt and fail to beat a team that didn't score at home for over 4 months prior to our visit. In comes Crouch again and we win a couple before dropping him for Chelsea away in the Champions League, which we lose. After that Crouch's only start is home to Chelsea, a game we won as you will recall, this being his only start in the final month of our season, culminating in his sub appearance in the Athens final.

Last season when Crouch started we won over 75% of our games. When he didn't start we won 36%. The season before that ratio was not as high, but still pretty good, above Rafa's win percentage overall, and thats with him having a run of 24hrs without scoring for us.

Now it doesn't take a math genius to see how that suggests starting with Crouch is a GOOD THING. And that is without a player of Fernando Torres' calibre to partner him, instead having a Morientes, Cisse, Fowler, Kuyt or Bellamy.

Crouch is clearly not the guy to lead the attacking line for any title challenging side, for that you have Torres. But he should be the guy playing alongside him more often than not, sharing the load, being an outlet, allowing Torres to do things other than challenge giant centre-halfs for balls from deep.

The difference between Crouch and Kuyt is fairly simple. For Crouch generally you point to games where he didn't contribute to things as being the exception, rather than the rule. For Kuyt it is the reverse.

Fantastic post and shows you've 'researched' the facts to back up your argument which most posters don't bother to do. I for one think Crouch has been treated very poorly this season and the way he's been used (or not) is just one of a whole host of baffling decisions and i feel as fans we're right to question some of those decisions. It's also fair to say that the off field problems have glossed over the on field problems that we have.

[alunevans]

Although on all the early evidence most thought the Kuyt/Torres partnership was the best.

Hindsight is a........

this hindsight thing is nonsense. how long has this topic been going on in various threads. long enough to be regarded as an "old chestnut" that's for sure. and yet when people make the point now its regarded as being smart after the event. astonishing!

[Jazzmaster]

this hindsight thing is nonsense. how long has this topic been going on in various threads. long enough to be regarded as an "old chestnut" that's for sure. and yet when people make the point now its regarded as being smart after the event. astonishing!

Exactly. Talk to anyone with half a brain and they will tell you that they cant understand why the hell crouch is not getting more pitch time than he is at the moment. Kuyt is not up to it and hasnt been for a long time and thus it doesnt make any sense to keep playing him alongside torres at the expense of crouch who is generally a constant goal threat.

[Red_Polo]

He did look terrible didn't he? Still, you just know there's plenty of fight left in him yet.

[Craig_H]

Crouch didn't start Man U at home last season, that was another cameo from the bench when he got 10 minutes and still caused more problems than Kuyt.

We ended 2005-2006 with 9 straight league wins and then a Cup win. Momentum. Crouchy at the fulcrum of the attack, not prolific but doing the job and us winning those games despite a pretty average strike force of Fowler, Nando, Crouch and Cisse. He had a decent World Cup despite being given limited chances by another manager who had his favourites (in Owen and Rooney) and did everything possible to get them on the pitch, regardless of their fitness or suitability for the game. It's widely accepted that Sven fkd up picking Rooney on his own against Portugal, allowing him to get booted around the pitch until he snapped with nobody to play off or share the load.

The problems for me comes with what Rafa did in Summer 2006 which, as we can now say, was a waste of time and money in terms of lasting impact for the club as not a single player we bought then is still around having a regular positive influence on the team.

If you look at the start of 2006-2007 Crouchy was on fire. He had an impact coming off the Bench against Haifa, I think he got a flick on the ball to Gonzo to score the winner, scored the winner in the Community Shield, scored for England against Greece, scored away against Haifa, scored home against West Ham, scored against Andorra and then the winner away to Macedonia. Then came the Derby when we picked a very odd side with no pace and some defensive howlers lead to a defeat.

At that point Crouchy, who had scored 6 in 8 starts, is benched by Rafa as he seeks to go with Bellamy & Kuyt for a few games. We fail to score against PSV, we lose to Chelsea, then we have a couple of decent results. He doesn't start any of those games. He comes back into the side and bags a couple against Galatasaray, including that wonderful overhead kick, but is immediately benched for the Bolton game which we lose. He comes back in and does okay against Blackburn, then scores the winner against Bordeaux, but it is then reported in the papers that he will not start against Utd. He doesn't and we lose 2-0 with an inept 4-6-0 formation spearheaded by Kuyt.

Crouch returns to the starting line-up and we win the next 4 he starts, only to go to Arsenal and play with Gonzalez and Zenden in midfield, losing the game 3-0. Crouch is benched, not Kuyt, and we go to Boro and have a dismal 0-0 draw. Crouch comes back in and we start to pick up again.

Later on in the season Crouch is out with an injury, he comes back and bags the hat-trick against Arsenal, scores against PSV, sets up Arbeloa against Reading, scores against PSV again, then is "rested" for Man City away where we go 4-6-0 again with Kuyt and fail to beat a team that didn't score at home for over 4 months prior to our visit. In comes Crouch again and we win a couple before dropping him for Chelsea away in the Champions League, which we lose. After that Crouch's only start is home to Chelsea, a game we won as you will recall, this being his only start in the final month of our season, culminating in his sub appearance in the Athens final.

Last season when Crouch started we won over 75% of our games. When he didn't start we won 36%. The season before that ratio was not as high, but still pretty good, above Rafa's win percentage overall, and thats with him having a run of 24hrs without scoring for us.

Now it doesn't take a math genius to see how that suggests starting with Crouch is a GOOD THING. And that is without a player of Fernando Torres' calibre to partner him, instead having a Morientes, Cisse, Fowler, Kuyt or Bellamy.

Crouch is clearly not the guy to lead the attacking line for any title challenging side, for that you have Torres. But he should be the guy playing alongside him more often than not, sharing the load, being an outlet, allowing Torres to do things other than challenge giant centre-halfs for balls from deep.

The difference between Crouch and Kuyt is fairly simple. For Crouch generally you point to games where he didn't contribute to things as being the exception, rather than the rule. For Kuyt it is the reverse.

Utterly superb post. Fantastic.

The only argument left for the kuyt sympathisers is 'but rafa sees him in training'...

[Shaggy]

Utterly superb post. Fantastic.

The only argument left for the kuyt sympathisers is 'but rafa sees him in training'...

It was a great post but I find it quite frustrating that it needs spelling out to some with cold, hard facts. I find it completely ****ing unbelievable, if I’m honest, that any football fan can watch both Crouch and Kuyt and not decipher that Crouch is a far superior centre-forward in every sense.

The fact is, when we bought Kuyt he was supposed to be an upgrade on Crouch. He isn’t – he’s worse.

[Jazzmaster]

It was a great post but I find it quite frustrating that it needs spelling out to some with cold, hard facts. I find it completely ****ing unbelievable, if I’m honest, that any football fan can watch both Crouch and Kuyt and not decipher that Crouch is a far superior centre-forward in every sense.

The fact is, when we bought Kuyt he was supposed to be an upgrade on Crouch. He isn’t – he’s worse.

Yeah its utterly depressing. No faith in the owners no faith in the manager - where do we go from here?

It might be interesting to put up a poll to see who thinks rafa should still go at the end of the season no matter what happens re the ownership of the club.

[JohnDoe]

It was a great post but I find it quite frustrating that it needs spelling out to some with cold, hard facts. I find it completely ****ing unbelievable, if I’m honest, that any football fan can watch both Crouch and Kuyt and not decipher that Crouch is a far superior centre-forward in every sense.

The fact is, when we bought Kuyt he was supposed to be an upgrade on Crouch. He isn’t – he’s worse.

It's very simple for me. If I were a manager, I know who I'd love to see playing against me. Give me Kuyt "attacking" my defence every week and I'm laughing. He's a non-threat. It takes 5 minutes of watching his game to figure it out.