Gerrard on the right???

[Nic83]

Advanced centre of a three

[dww]

I think you are unfair on Alonso. He is not hugely dynamic but his positioning when freed by Mascher (and he is fully fit) makes up for it. With those two in the middle we can switch the point of attack quickly and play to our strengths much more. United have played with Hargreaves and Anderson both deep this season to great effect and played with the only intermittently more dynamic than Alonso Carrick most of last season.

The balance thing for me is a factor but you have to have other players who are flexible in their positioning too and we do in Yossi, Torres, Kuyt and Babel who will switch when he goes to far out of position.

While Pennant may well have more pace than Gerrard I am unconvinced his crossing is superior. He certainly offers less variation than Gerrard in the balls he delivers and is predictable as everyone knows his one move inside is to run uselessly across the pitch.

[Nic83]

Gerrard - doesn't stay wide. No balance.
Alonso - has zero drive as a creative midfield.
Pennant has more pace and better crosses than Gerrard.
Gerrard has the force and drive we need at the center of the park.
I could see Gerrard on the right but then Lucas would have to develop A LOT first.

Alonso is not the answer. Way too little drive and ambition to play advanced CM. Forget it!

You're right, he only instigates 80% of our attacks. Buy a TV.

[Red_Polo]

Dunno about Gerrard needing good wide players for him to be best in a 4-4-2, we had fairly toilet wide players under Houllier and Gerrard was often startlingly good while all those around him were ****. We should obviously look to improve out wide but I don't think it's a factor for Gerrard's form more than it is for say Alonso whose game is far more dependant on having runners to hit with passes.

I think there's a huge conflict in the way Gerrard naturally wants to play and the way Rafa wants us to play, but Rafa's not going to change Gerrard so fundamentally as a player - it's just not feasible. So IMO he's either got to be prepared to evolve his philosophy accordingly or continue to get less than the best out of him. That's the way it should always be anyway, personnel should shape tactics as much as tactics shape personnel.

[dww]

Dunno about Gerrard needing good wide players for him to be best in a 4-4-2, we had fairly toilet wide players under Houllier and Gerrard was often startlingly good while all those around him were ****. We should obviously look to improve out wide but I don't think it's a factor for Gerrard's form more than it is for say Alonso whose game is far more dependant on having runners to hit with passes.

I think there's a huge conflict in the way Gerrard naturally wants to play and the way Rafa wants us to play, but Rafa's not going to change Gerrard so fundamentally as a player - it's just not feasible. So IMO he's either got to be prepared to evolve his philosophy accordingly or continue to get less than the best out of him. That's the way it should always be anyway, personnel should shape tactics as much as tactics shape personnel.

Thats a fair point but the reason I say good wide players is that I think he needs options to get the ball away to. Under Houllier he always had Owen and often also Heskey to hit when he was under pressure. I think defending in the PL has got better and you can no longer only have a central get out ball. For me in CM the tendency to try the long ball with a low percentage is Gerrard's biggest weakness.

I would accept that a genuinely creative hole player (in the Aimar style) would also give the required options.

I completely agree with you that you need a feedback between personnel and tactics. I just think that in a two man midfield more compromises have to be made to accommodate Gerrard around him and you to some extent have to shackle him too.

[Red_Polo]

Thats a fair point but the reason I say good wide players is that I think he needs options to get the ball away to. Under Houllier he always had Owen and often also Heskey to hit when he was under pressure. I think defending in the PL has got better and you can no longer only have a central get out ball. For me in CM the tendency to try the long ball with a low percentage is Gerrard's biggest weakness.

I would accept that a genuinely creative hole player (in the Aimar style) would also give the required options.

I completely agree with you that you need a feedback between personnel and tactics. I just think that in a two man midfield more compromises have to be made to accommodate Gerrard around him and you to some extent have to shackle him too.

Can definitely see that in the way Gerrard plays at the mo, but I always get the impression it's only the case because of Rafa's control freak tendencies. Scum got by ok with Carrick and Scholes for much of last season yet somehow under Rafa Gerrard can still be shackled when he has a dedicated defensive mid alongside him. Doesn't seem right to me. I can see where Rafa's coming from, and I'm positive with all the ideal players for it his system would work brilliantly in this league, but I do feel in the meantime he should be more flexible with certain things and give a little bit more emphasis to attack as a form of defence.

It will be interesting to see the difference it makes if we get a really top notch Aimar type player or winger in. Torres has made a difference, but we're so overrun by insipid players that his signing alone wasn't nearly enough.

[Shaggy]

The never-ending debate.

[Red_Polo]

The never-ending debate.

All we need now is a Michael Owen thread

[Pablo]

Gerrard - doesn't stay wide. No balance.
Alonso - has zero drive as a creative midfield.
Pennant has more pace and better crosses than Gerrard.
Gerrard has the force and drive we need at the center of the park.
I could see Gerrard on the right but then Lucas would have to develop A LOT first.

Alonso is not the answer. Way too little drive and ambition to play advanced CM. Forget it!

Neither of those statements in bold are remotely true. Gerrard is one of the fastest players in our squad and is one of the best crossers of the ball in the league.

If Gerrard actually did what he was told and hugged the touchline I dont think there is any arguement he would be our best RM. The main argument is whether he is better of for the team in the middle of the park or out wide.

[dww]

Can definitely see that in the way Gerrard plays at the mo, but I always get the impression it's only the case because of Rafa's control freak tendencies. Scum got by ok with Carrick and Scholes for much of last season yet somehow under Rafa Gerrard can still be shackled when he has a dedicated defensive mid alongside him. Doesn't seem right to me. I can see where Rafa's coming from, and I'm positive with all the ideal players for it his system would work brilliantly in this league, but I do feel in the meantime he should be more flexible with certain things and give a little bit more emphasis to attack as a form of defence.

It will be interesting to see the difference it makes if we get a really top notch Aimar type player or winger in. Torres has made a difference, but we're so overrun by insipid players that his signing alone wasn't nearly enough.

The difference is that Scholes and Carrick's first instinct is a short ball which allows them to keep possession of the ball and hence control of the game more easily and had Ronaldo on one wing who creates so much space and such good angles the opposition often mark him rather than concentrating their efforts in the centre. They also play a more counter attack orientated game which I do think is something Rafa needs to add to our options.

I agree that Rafa should tilt the balance towards attack. I would do it by using the two midfielders to build a platform and then giving the four ahead of them greater freedom and less covering duties.

[Rafa_el_Gafa]

We have the tools to be playing 3-4-1-2


Gerrard could then be unleashed to go more or less where he wanted.

[Redpross]

I think we could worse than sticking Benny upfront with Torres.... he is tricky, can make space for himself, has got an eye for a pass and goal!!!

[Red_Polo]

The difference is that Scholes and Carrick's first instinct is a short ball which allows them to keep possession of the ball and hence control of the game more easily and had Ronaldo on one wing who creates so much space and such good angles the opposition often mark him rather than concentrating their efforts in the centre. They also play a more counter attack orientated game which I do think is something Rafa needs to add to our options.

I agree that Rafa should tilt the balance towards attack. I would do it by using the two midfielders to build a platform and then giving the four ahead of them greater freedom and less covering duties.

Thing is though, is keeping possession really our problem, or is it actually doing something useful with it? When we're in poor form our passing gets sloppy of course but I'm not convinced it's a major reason we've not been an effective enough attacking unit in general over the last few years.

This debate will run and run, it's just nice for once a footy thread hasn't descended into the platitudes followed by **** slinging.

We have the tools to be playing 3-4-1-2


Gerrard could then be unleashed to go more or less where he wanted.

Tbh with you I shudder at the thought of us regularly playing anything other than 4 at the back. 3 is just sus somehow

[paulcooper4]

Neither of those statements in bold are remotely true. Gerrard is one of the fastest players in our squad and is one of the best crossers of the ball in the league.

If Gerrard actually did what he was told and hugged the touchline I dont think there is any arguement he would be our best RM. The main argument is whether he is better of for the team in the middle of the park or out wide.

[dww]

[QUOTE=Red_Polo;934654]Thing is though, is keeping possession really our problem, or is it actually doing something useful with it? When we're in poor form our passing gets sloppy of course but I'm not convinced it's a major reason we've not been an effective enough attacking unit in general over the last few years.

This debate will run and run, it's just nice for once a footy thread hasn't descended into the platitudes followed by **** slinging.
/QUOTE]

I thin the thing is though that the system we use relies on having a lot of possession and probing the opposition for chances. The alternative is to create wholes in the opposition using counter attacks and I would happily see us add that to our game but it isn't the basics of how Rafa plays the game.

For me we need to get back to the things we have done well in the past which is control the game and harry the opposition so they create little. If you do this systematically it builds confidence which for me is the major thing which is missing at the minute.