Have our players improved under Rafa?

[ntto]

One of the things that has been running around in my head all weekend is whether we can state to a certainty if any (or should that be "how many") of our players have improved under Rafa.

Now this thread isn't meant to be bashing Rafa in any way so don't think it is (or merge it with any other threads) and lets try and look at it objectively.

I read a thread on here last week that was talking about Babel and about his "raw" potential - then somebody commented on how if he had gone to Arsenal then Wenger would have made him into a world beater. I'm afraid to admit that I completely agree with this. Wenger has the reputation to take average to good players and make them good, great or world class. The list of players he has done this with goes on and on - henry (was a relative failure in italy), vieira (playing in milan reserves), petit, anelka, fabrigas, cole etc etc - even the likes of toure who was an attacking midfield player at some point has been turned into a great centre back. Somebody like flamini who was awful a season or two ago has made a name for himself in centre midfield.

Now I know some of you will say they were good players to begin with, but I doubt anybody can say that Wenger hasn't made them better players. Yes he has had his donkeys too (cygan springs to mind) but nobody is perfect.

You could analyse Utds squad in a similar way. Yes the core of the squad were brought through the youth system or else were bought for extremely large sums on money - but even those players have improved. Ferdinand had a reputation for poor concentration which has now been addressed, rooney is a better player (including being more "intelligent") from his everton days. Ronaldo is probably the best example, in his first few seasons he was all show and little product, he wasnt the best crosser of a ball and counted his success on the number of stepovers. How he is a far more "effective" footballer.

And I'm sure somebody will point at player "potential" being the key to this - and yes it has a lot of bearing.

And then comes the comparison.

My view is that we have just as good a squad as other clubs. Is gerrard/mascherano a better pairing than fabrigas/flamini or hargreaves/anderson? Well I'd say definately yes.

Is carra/agger as good as toure/gallas or ferdinand/vidic. I'd say we're on a par. Granted agger hasnt played much football.

But have our players improved? Riise hasnt scored this season, finnan isnt as effective as previous seasons, alonso looks horribly out of form, kewell (lets not go there), kuyt has done desperately downhill, crouch arguably hasnt repeated his early liverpool form. I'm struggling to identify somebody who has definately improved under the current regime.

yes we're a fitter squad, but we dont look confident and if things arent going our way then dont look as if we have the fight to come back - and we certainly cant kill teams off when we're dominating.

Reina possibly has improved, carra to a certain extent (as he is now more settled in cb).

Would babel be a far better player under wenger? This term "raw" - surely thats just a nisnomer for being misguided or given little direction?

Are we only two or three attacking players away from being league winners? Will two great wingers make the difference?

[Cormack74]

Rafa's strengh is organisation so it's perhaps logical that Carra is the sort of player who has improved. ie He plays in a position where organisation is fundamental.

Babel was quoted in an interview as saying that Rafa doesn't give him instuction unless it relates to defending. As such I'm inclined to worry that Babel is not going to improve in the way that we need him to under Rafa. ie offensively.

Sadly (and in my humble opinion) this applies to most of our attacking players.

[Kenneth]

Although he hasn't played much this year, Crouch has improved under Rafa.

[NIGLIV]

One of the things that has been running around in my head all weekend is whether we can state to a certainty if any (or should that be "how many") of our players have improved under Rafa.

Now this thread isn't meant to be bashing Rafa in any way so don't think it is (or merge it with any other threads) and lets try and look at it objectively.

I read a thread on here last week that was talking about Babel and about his "raw" potential - then somebody commented on how if he had gone to Arsenal then Wenger would have made him into a world beater. I'm afraid to admit that I completely agree with this. Wenger has the reputation to take average to good players and make them good, great or world class. The list of players he has done this with goes on and on - henry (was a relative failure in italy), vieira (playing in milan reserves), petit, anelka, fabrigas, cole etc etc - even the likes of toure who was an attacking midfield player at some point has been turned into a great centre back. Somebody like flamini who was awful a season or two ago has made a name for himself in centre midfield.

Now I know some of you will say they were good players to begin with, but I doubt anybody can say that Wenger hasn't made them better players. Yes he has had his donkeys too (cygan springs to mind) but nobody is perfect.

You could analyse Utds squad in a similar way. Yes the core of the squad were brought through the youth system or else were bought for extremely large sums on money - but even those players have improved. Ferdinand had a reputation for poor concentration which has now been addressed, rooney is a better player (including being more "intelligent") from his everton days. Ronaldo is probably the best example, in his first few seasons he was all show and little product, he wasnt the best crosser of a ball and counted his success on the number of stepovers. How he is a far more "effective" footballer.

And I'm sure somebody will point at player "potential" being the key to this - and yes it has a lot of bearing.

And then comes the comparison.

My view is that we have just as good a squad as other clubs. Is gerrard/mascherano a better pairing than fabrigas/flamini or hargreaves/anderson? Well I'd say definately yes.

Is carra/agger as good as toure/gallas or ferdinand/vidic. I'd say we're on a par. Granted agger hasnt played much football.

But have our players improved? Riise hasnt scored this season, finnan isnt as effective as previous seasons, alonso looks horribly out of form, kewell (lets not go there), kuyt has done desperately downhill, crouch arguably hasnt repeated his early liverpool form. I'm struggling to identify somebody who has definately improved under the current regime.

yes we're a fitter squad, but we dont look confident and if things arent going our way then dont look as if we have the fight to come back - and we certainly cant kill teams off when we're dominating.

Reina possibly has improved, carra to a certain extent (as he is now more settled in cb).

Would babel be a far better player under wenger? This term "raw" - surely thats just a nisnomer for being misguided or given little direction?

Are we only two or three attacking players away from being league winners? Will two great wingers make the difference?

Those are important observations I share too. I think it has a lot to do with our training. From what I gather from pre-match interviews it seem Rafa concentrates on "preparing" for the next team (i.e. defending properly and controlling the game) rather than inproving our all round play. Infact I would like to know from any insider on here whether there is any coaching for technique and touch,dribbling, synchronised passing and attacks etc.

It is only natural from his present coaching regime that defenders will improve and develop their "raw" talent. Sadly this has impacted on the attacking side negatively. When the scum and Arsenal are playing you recognise from the get go that there has been hours of training put in there and the attackers have been given some special attention.

Look at Adebayor for example,his touch has improved so much, something that is said to develop ONLY during the tender years of a future footballer, yet Kuyt's has declined.

I have also expressed my opinion about Torres and Babel. Torres is slightly adjusting his game to how we play. He has resorted to poaching and less of dribbling. I hope he doesn't regress. As for Babel, I am sure wenger feels very bad seeing him playing below his potential. I hate to think how he would turn out for the scum or Arsenal. Turning Babel into a world class player (not a good player) remains my acid test for Rafa's coaching abilities.

As for new players, nothing less than £20 million worth of talent will add anything significant. Even then I won't hold my breath.

[ntto]

Rafa's strengh is organisation so it's perhaps logical that Carra is the sort of player who has improved. ie He plays in a position where organisation is fundamental.

Babel was quoted in an interview as saying that Rafa doesn't give him instuction unless it relates to defending. As such I'm inclined to worry that Babel is not going to improve in the way that we need him to under Rafa. ie offensively.

Sadly (and in my humble opinion) this applies to most of our attacking players.

surely part of the managers job is to ensure that the players improve their technical skills as well as setting them up tactically for the next game?

[simey85]

Its players like babel and torres that we need to see refine their games because they have the talent to be massive parts of our future, im unconvinced that this will happen under rafa!

[Frank Leroux]

.....
Babel was quoted in an interview as saying that Rafa doesn't give him instuction unless it relates to defending......

If that is true it is very telling and reinforces my view that, for Benitez, the game is essentially a set of situations which must not be lost

[AFII]

The difference is that Wenger more or less only signs players with excellent game intelligence and vision, Rafa don't.

We have players like Pennant, Kuyt, Crouch and Riise that simply isn't clever enough on the pitch.

Kewell is probably only getting chance after chance because he has excellent game intelligence and vision. He is probably together with Alonso our best players in that area. The sad thing is that no one of them is mobile enough anymore.

Game intelligence and vision are becoming more and more important.

[Frank Leroux]

The difference is that Wenger more or less only signs players with excellent game intelligence and vision, Rafa don't.

We have players like Pennant, Kuyt, Crouch and Riise that simply isn't clever enough on the pitch.

Kewell is probably only getting chance after chance because he has excellent game intelligence and vision. He is probably together with Alonso our best players in that area. The sad thing is that no one of them is mobile enough anymore.

Game intelligence and vision are becoming more and more important.

[simey85]

Game intelligence and vision is all well and good but kewell doesn't even get the ball so it is fcuk all good having him on. He hasn't the mobility or pace to find any room or exploit spaces in order to use it! Babel should be playing in order for him to build up confidence and refine his game because he is a raw diamond.

[DeeTheDog]

Look at the team Rafa had at Valencia, how many have went on to better things since he left? How we wet our pants with excitement at the prospect of Aimar, Vicente and Bareja, yet they have accomplished very little since.

You cannot underestimate the role of the backroom staff in the progression of players. Liam Brady has been pivotal at Arsenal, Fergie floundered without the right number two.

Many players I feel have come on, Carragher is widely regarded as one of the best centre halfs, Gerrard is a much more rounded player. Garcia was a bit part player at Barcelona and became a Spain regular.

[lucas10]

I cannot say for sure if players have improved under Rafa. But surely expectation of most Liverpool fans has improved so drastically that 2 Champion League Final is no longer acceptable.

[ntto]

Look at the team Rafa had at Valencia, how many have went on to better things since he left? How we wet our pants with excitement at the prospect of Aimar, Vicente and Bareja, yet they have accomplished very little since.

You cannot underestimate the role of the backroom staff in the progression of players. Liam Brady has been pivotal at Arsenal, Fergie floundered without the right number two.

Many players I feel have come on, Carragher is widely regarded as one of the best centre halfs, Gerrard is a much more rounded player. Garcia was a bit part player at Barcelona and became a Spain regular.

but have we ever come close to emulating what valencia were like? When they played us at anfield they played us off the park in every position, we were out fought and out thought. They were much more skillful and much fitter - and the important thing for me was they kept the ball on the ground and played "pass and move". We all salivated when rafa becamse manager based on what he had achieved at valencia. I'm not convinved we've seen a similar style at liverpool.

[ntto]

I cannot say for sure if players have improved under Rafa. But surely expectation of most Liverpool fans has improved so drastically that 2 Champion League Final is no longer acceptable.

is it about champions league finals though? Its been done to death but we're not exactly improving in the league. Turn it around, is finishing 5th in 2 seasons out of 5 acceptable?

[dww]

but have we ever come close to emulating what valencia were like? When they played us at anfield they played us off the park in every position, we were out fought and out thought. They were much more skillful and much fitter - and the important thing for me was they kept the ball on the ground and played "pass and move". We all salivated when rafa becamse manager based on what he had achieved at valencia. I'm not convinved we've seen a similar style at liverpool.

I think we have seen glimpses on the rare occasions when we had Gerrard one side and a fit Kewell the other. The interchanging made us a much more fluid team and gave the likes of Alonso targets to hit and the movement led to move on the floor passing.

I also think we have seen much more frequently the sort of midfield base upon which the Valencia side was built. Especially when Alonso and Mascher were playing together last year we often seemed to have complete control of the flow of a game. The problem with us has been uniting these two aspects and making the former part happen more regularly.