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**AFII** · 30-03-08, 09:18 AM

The difference is that United already had a great squad and Rafa had to start to more or less build the whole club up again from top to bottom.

That will take time.

Rafa also had to buy quantity before quality because he had to secure a CL place to get any money at all to spend. It's only this season with the signings of Torres and Masch that that has changed.

Step two is now on the way.

Step two is quality before quantity.

**carlton** · 30-03-08, 09:29 AM

I tend to agree with AF, they already had a great squad with rooney, ronaldo, scholes,giggs, neville, ferdinand as a nucleus. We were in for evra and vidic and might have had them if not for some dicking around. Turn 2-3 of our draws into wins and we would have been a lot closer too pointwise but quality wise we still have a way to go.

**Rashid** · 30-03-08, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by AFII View Post

The difference is that United already had a great squad and Rafa had to start to more or less build the whole club up again from top to bottom.

That will take time.

Rafa also had to buy quantity before quality because he had to secure a CL place to get any money at all to spend. It's only this season with the signings of Torres and Masch that that has changed.

Step two is now on the way.

Step two is quality before quantity.

Where was this gulf in quality over the course of the 2005-2006 seasons? We finished 1 point behind over 38 games.

Since then they have bought about 6 quality players while we have sold half of the squad and bought in another half.

We have spent more money but generally gone backwards. I think some of the squad players of 2006 should have been retained.

The reason we have fallen behind them IMO is that we have bought too many squad players and not improved that much on players we have sold.

I can't see much else difference.

**rage** · 30-03-08, 09:46 AM

simple reason at worst ferguson is a better league manager than rafa, at best rafa needs more time.

Look at utd this season, well oiled, everyone has a role and knows it inside out, for example can you see ferdinand being swapped to right back or players being dropped randomly or different formations played week in week out?

Its not just about transfers although even there i think he's not done as well as we'd have liked. this season he's bought crap like leto, and mediocre like lucas, yossi and even babel who has the positional sense of a schoolboy wasn't necessarily what we needed at the time. our weakspots from 4 years ago are the same today. lack of width and creativity.

torres and masch are exceptional rather than the norm in our squad and until that changes we have no chance.

**Guest** · 30-03-08, 09:56 AM

Stop with your simple assumptions Rashid. Football is not a science. All of this is pointless IMO. The best you can do is back the manager and the team regardless.

**AFII** · 30-03-08, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Rashid View Post

Where was this gulf in quality over the course of the 2005-2006 seasons? We finished 1 point behind over 38 games.

Since then they have bought about 6 quality players while we have sold half of the squad and bought in another half.

We have spent more money but generally gone backwards. I think some of the squad players of 2006 should have been retained.

The reason we have fallen behind them IMO is that we have bought too many squad players and not improved that much on players we have sold.

I can't see much else difference.

Rafa had to sign players so we could secure a CL place, that was more important than to gamble on signing quality over quantity because of our financial situation.

If Rafa for example had signed one quality player, say for example Quaresma for £25m instead of Bellamy, Kuyt and Pennant then we would be in a very dangerous position if Quaresma got a long term injury.

That would probably mean no CL and more or less no money to spend the following season and then you are on the way down from there.

**carlton** · 30-03-08, 10:14 AM

Its fair comment saying Rafa has taken a long time to come to terms with the PL, he has more or less said that as well but there is also a quality gap caused by lack of funds most evident when Manu were able to bring on tevez and nani off the bench and we brought on riise and yossi. Rafa has to get his first choice targets for us to be competitive and hopefully next season we will see him play the best 11 week in week out in the league.

**The Glove** · 30-03-08, 10:34 AM

One word can sum up why they have ****ed off.

Ronaldo.

**Gingawaria** · 30-03-08, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by The Glove View Post

One word can sum up why they have ****ed off.

Ronaldo.

Yup, in the 18 months it's taken them to get so good, Ronaldo's gone from being a very good player to the best player in the world. I'd say that's a pretty big contributory factor.

**Alan Key** · 30-03-08, 11:07 AM

Ferdinand, Rooney and especially Carrick are much better players than most give them credit for. Ferdinand is the best centre back in the league and Rooney the best link up man. Carrick is where Alonso was a few years ago.

**Rafa Shankly** · 30-03-08, 11:14 AM

oh ffs not another thread reminding us how much the mancs are better than us.

**Rashid** · 30-03-08, 11:15 AM

I know where United were in 2005 - nowhere. They then sold their best striker and bought in a nobody from Spurs to replace Roy Keane.

What they did though is have a go at every team they played and ended up in a good position by February and with Chelsea imploding with injuries and in fighting they took advantage.

What Fergie did well is take full advantage of that success and spent wisely last summer - Nani, Anderson and Tevez were magnificent signings... the jury is still out on Hargreaves but as he has Carrick I doubt he would lose much sleep over that.

In 2006 our team was:

Reina
Finnan Carragher Sami Riise
Cisse Sissoko Alonso Kewell
Crouch Gerrard

Or something similar - we have made massive improvements in bringing in Mascherano and Torres but other than that the money spent hasn't significantly improved us and we have made massive changes...

I'd have kept most of the lads from 2006 and maybe added only a few players spending heavily for a right back and a left winger in addition to Torres, Babel and Mascherano.

I guess my point was not to legitimise criticism of Rafa but to get a debate going on the merits of dismantling the squad of previous managers as seems to happen a lot in English football a lot. I think 80% of our 2006 should have stayed with maybe 5 new top class players added. Squad players are squad players at the end of the day, not much difference in quality between them.

It is the first 11 that differs so much between us and United and can you now see why?

For all the world class players and they do have a few of those, for all the criticisms of Ferdinand, and the ****e spouted about Evra when he came their defence is the best in the league by a mile and that without their captain and a keeper who is injured a lot. They also have proved that you don't have to sacrifice defence to attack teams.

It's obvious Fergie gets the best out of his players but he does surround the first 11 with genuine quality and that's where we have got it wrong IMO since 2006. I listed the player/personnel changes - can that amount of change still be a good thing 2 to 3 years after joining?

I also don't buy that argument about his team "developing", well ours should have too by that token. I just think that we would be much closer if we kept a settled squad built a togetherness and added only or two to the first team.

Consistency in performances can only be had if we have a consistent squad. Again my point is that we have gone from 1 point behind, spent more money than them and gone even further behind. In fact the gulf is getting even greater going by their performance yesterday.

**The Glove** · 30-03-08, 11:21 AM

It doesnt matter how much money you spend. If one of our players improved at the rate of Ronaldo then we would be where they are regardless of who else we bought/sold.

Ronaldo, as much as it pains me to say it, is immense and he cost what? To buy that standard of player now, youre talking world record. We cant compete with that. However, Babel could turn into that kind of player, then we could be up there with them and how much we spent would be an irrelevance wouldnt it?

Summing up, its the player not the cost.

No one couldve predicted when Ronaldo turned up how much of a player he has turned into. Hell I remember Mancs ringing up and slating him saying he was ****e,waste of money etc. Now look at him. That has got **** all to do with the amount of money they have spent over all, same as it doesnt matter how much we have spent. That player is the best and no one can compete with that no matter how much they spend.

Take him out of United and they would be 25 league goals worse off. Thats before you even look at how many goals he plays a major part in. No other player has contributed so much and he is the sole reason that everyone esle looks to be going backward.

**Rashid** · 30-03-08, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by The Glove View Post

It doesnt matter how much money you spend. If one of our players improved at the reat of Ronaldo then we would be where they are regardless of who else we bought/sold.

Ronaldo, as much as it pains me to say it, is immense and he cost what? To buy that standard of player now, youre talking world record. We cant compete with that. However, Babel could turn into that kind of player, then we could be up there with them and how much we spent would be an irrelevance wouldnt it?

Summing up, its the player not the cost.

No one couldve predicted when Ronaldo turned up how much of a player he has turned into. Hell I remember Mancs ringing up and slating him saying he was ****e,waste of money etc. Now look at him. That has got **** all to do with the amount of money they have spent over all, same as it doesnt matter how much we have spent. That player is the best and no one can compete with that no matter how much they spend.

Take him out of United and they would be 25 league goals worse off. Thats before you even look at how many goals he plays a major part in. No other player has contributed so much and he is the sole reason that everyone esle looks to be going backward.

But we have Torres now which is an improvement in Grand Canyon proportions compared to Kuyt and Crouch - money can sometimes have something to do with it.

It is to do with overhauling the team for no reason... no point in it at all.. I think Rafa became obsessed with getting Houllier's boys out and he didn't need to.

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