Pako leaving a blessing for Rafa?

[Dessy]

A fast intelligent striker I would guess, I dont think Cisse could play the role Torres is playing.

Why didnt Rafa try Kuyt in that position when he first brought him in? I'm sure he was bought first and foremost as a striker?

[El Jefecito]

What players wouldn't have fit into this sytem when he first took charge and why?

I'm dont mean to imply that Rafa is clueless and maybe stumble is wrong word to use but we did play some good stuff before pako's departure with largely the same squad? No?

And we've played even better since we switched to 4231.

[dww]

Why ddnt Rafa try Kuyt in that position when he first brough him in? I'm sure he was bought first and foremost as a striker?

I think that he was bought to play a role similar to that done by Rooney frequently for United. Clearly a central forward but not leading the line in the traditional sense. In that role he would come into the side instead of Gerrard without much alteration to the 4-2-3-1 shape of the team (obviously I mean Gerrard would be shifted elsewhere rather than replaced 1 for 1). That was a role he was used in earlier in the season.

I think there was more an evolution to the current system via a slightly less well defined 4-4-1-1 type formation which was actually very similar and we have played a lot last and earlier this season.

[Skillz]

No idea, that's why Rafa's the manager & I stick with internet forums

It is undeniable that this is a past favourite formation of his though and I fully expected to see him impliment it before now. I would guess Alonso's injury delayed it to a degree as 2 x holding midfielders is key to the formation and he has struggled with injury and form earlier in the season

He will always try different things with different players depending on player availability, fitness, form etc but to say he stumbled across this 4-2-3-1 formation suggests he did it by accident which most certainly isn't the case

I would also suggest losing Agger delayed it along with the fact Babel needed bedding in. Personally think Rafa decided to go this way but it isn't the finished product by a long way. Faster more attacking fullbacks are required as is a right sided attacker of quality.

[Dessy]

Rafa had to ditch 442(1-1) because a) it was obvious we did not have a good enough partner for Torres b) he had to find a way to get more from SG than we could as a deeper CM.

We still don't have the players to suit this system. Kuyt and the FBs are questionable in their roles.

It was also obvious that our wide players were not up to the mark ( and are still not up to the mark) so 4-2-3-1, however we got there, lends itself perfectly at the moment to our squad.

[Woobus]

Why ddnt Rafa try Kuyt in that position when he first brough him in? I'm sure he was bought first and foremost as a striker?

Not fast enough to hit teams on the counter attack and maybe he always planned to play Kuyt on the right when he got the striker he wanted. Could also be not having a defender with speed, as soon as Agger got injured we changed back to 4-4-2 and changed back when Skrtel came in.
All guess work, but I do feel he had planned to use this formation when he had the proper personnel.

[homer1]

I would also suggest losing Agger delayed it along with the fact Babel needed bedding in. Personally think Rafa decided to go this way but it isn't the finished product by a long way. Faster more attacking fullbacks are required as is a right sided attacker of quality.

I'm sure the fact that none of Crouch, Kuyt or Voronin showed any sort of form that justified playing up top week in week out with Torres wouln't have been ignored either to be fair. If one of them were showing good form he may well have persevered with a 4-4-2 for longer

[Woobus]

We still don't have the players to suit this system. Kuyt and the FBs are questionable in their roles.

Still think if we get a good attacking right FB then Kuyt will look a lot better and add more to the team.

[Dessy]

And we've played even better since we switched to 4231.

Agreed and long may it continue, the good football that is not the formation. I'm a traditionalist at heart and would always like to see 2 strikers spearheading a 4-4-2

[Skillz]

I'm sure the fact that none of Crouch, Kuyt or Voronin showed any sort of form that justified playing up top week in week out with Torres wouln't have been ignored either to be fair. If one of them were showing good form he may well have persevered with a 4-4-2 for longer

Agree again. That definitely helped Rafa make the decision. Personally I think he needed

- Masher and Alonso
- Mobile ball playing CB (Agger or Skrtel)
- Confidence to start Babel

before he would consider going back to this system.

[Dessy]

I think that he was bought to play a role similar to that done by Rooney frequently for United. Clearly a central forward but not leading the line in the traditional sense. In that role he would come into the side instead of Gerrard without much alteration to the 4-2-3-1 shape of the team (obviously I mean Gerrard would be shifted elsewhere rather than replaced 1 for 1). That was a role he was used in earlier in the season.

I think there was more an evolution to the current system via a slightly less well defined 4-4-1-1 type formation which was actually very similar and we have played a lot last and earlier this season.

Again not by design? Kuyt IMO doesn't stand up to a 'Rooney' role. Nor does he have the technical ability to replace Stevie G in the advanced midfield/off the attacker role.

Surely he was originally bought to lead the line and get goals? Could he have not therefore been tried as the spearhead of a 4-2-3-1?

[dww]

Again not by design? Kuyt IMO doesn't stand up to a 'Rooney' role. Nor does he have the technical ability to replace Stevie G in the advanced midfield/off the attacker role.

Surely he was originally bought to lead the line and get goals? Could he have not therefore been tried as the spearhead of a 4-2-3-1?

I think he was tried briefly in a similar role (see the Blackburn away game as an example) led the line well did okay at bringing people into play not a finisher though. I really think he was bought as the second striker to work either with someone like Crouch or someone like Torres and do something similar to what Jol suggested of being a 20:20 player although in reality he is probably a 15:15 man when on form.

I think he could directly be likened to Morientes who also played a deeper role. The hope being that Kuyt would have better succes at getting the 10-15 is goals you need from that position. I think that on form Kuyt plays the attacking central role well if very differently to Gerrard - he requires runners off him and from deep. Rafa has until Torres always seemed keen to get goals spread around rather than concentrated in one player (even if that was not always successful).

I suspect that Rafa felt that Kuyt there would benefit a Gerrard/Mascher deeplying partnership. However sadly Kuyt's form was poor and it didn't really work. I do however think that was always Rafas intention for him.

[Dessy]

Not fast enough to hit teams on the counter attack and maybe he always planned to play Kuyt on the right when he got the striker he wanted. Could also be not having a defender with speed, as soon as Agger got injured we changed back to 4-4-2 and changed back when Skrtel came in.
All guess work, but I do feel he had planned to use this formation when he had the proper personnel.

I dont think Rafa paid £12mill? on Kuyt to play on the right. Kuyt was bought to lead the line and has simply been recycled to the right side by virtue of the fact that he has shown nothing in front of goal.

Also we appeared to be looking for width (pennant) early on to strengthen a 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) style of play ....... which up until Nov 07 was working well.

[dww]

I will at this point put my hand up and say that I used to believe like you he was naturally a right up top sort of man. However Rafa hasn't seemed to play him that way at any point.

In fact I seem to remember arguing with Shaggy he would be much better moved forward this season (at the end of last). Which shows that even in his early times he was playing deep - I can't see Rafa so consistently doing this if it wasn't his original intention.

[Dessy]

I think he was tried briefly in a similar role (see the Blackburn away game as an example) led the line well did okay at bringing people into play not a finisher though. I really think he was bought as the second striker to work either with someone like Crouch or someone like Torres and do something similar to what Jol suggested of being a 20:20 player although in reality he is probably a 15:15 man when on form.

I think he could directly be likened to Morientes who also played a deeper role. The hope being that Kuyt would have better succes at getting the 10-15 is goals you need from that position. I think that on form Kuyt plays the attacking central role well if very differently to Gerrard - he requires runners off him and from deep. Rafa has until Torres always seemed keen to get goals spread around rather than concentrated in one player (even if that was not always successful).

I suspect that Rafa felt that Kuyt there would benefit a Gerrard/Mascher deeplying partnership. However sadly Kuyt's form was poor and it didn't really work. I do however think that was always Rafas intention for him.

Thankfully I think Kuyt has been a revelation for the last half a dozen games on the right side. Whether hes there long term is another question but on form leave him to it at the moment until we have some players that offer natural width.