Hansen talking sense

[JermainePennant]

Barry is not being bought for "tactical reasons", but rather that in the context of the EPL he will be a significant upgrade on Xabi.

Sorry mate your saying he will be a significant upgrade on xabi which is absolute balls imo.It is very debatable whether barry is better then xabi or not which I certainly dont think he is but how can you say he will be a significant improvement over xabi when having played in the prem for something like 10 years his best season was last when he got something like 8 assists and about the same in goals which were mostly pens, and this is with him playing week in week out for villa which xabi certainly didnt do last season did he.

My main problem is why are we going to spend 15m+ who based on his best season is likely to get something like 5 goals considering he wont be taking pens, would this not be better spent on a quality wide player who can provide us with the quality we require in the attacking end.

You also say we need width not wingers but I would argue the players we have who play out wide do provide good width mainly pennant but they dont consistenly deliver a good final ball and are most games ineffective especailly against the top teams.

Hansen is right we are miles behind manu in the wide areas, Nani would definitly get in our team but is mostly on the bench for them.We need a player who is going to help us break teams down,Barry is not going to help us here, Keane will get some goals and create a few but these two players are not going to bridge the gap between us and the other 2-3.

[El Jefecito]

El Jef, the point is that we don't need an upgrade on Xabi in the Xabi mould. It's too negative a line up. He's not creative enough imo. We'll already have Mascherano and Gerrard who can play the role. We need someone a bit more creative

And I know a lot of people say Rafa knows his stuff. Yeah he does. But Hansen knows this league and knows what it takes to win the league in England. This time he is spot on....with the Barry part of it anyway.

The question of width vs. wingers, is an entirely different question to the Xabi vs. Barry question though. My take is we need 2 upgrades to succeed. 1/ in terms of width and 2/ in terms of the CM not being caught in posession all the time, missing out on his passes, ....

To progress we need to address BOTH. To ignore one over the other would be negligent IMO.

Can see where you are coming from though. BUT as far as I am concerned SG is no longer a CM, he is a 2nd striker. He's twice as good as a 2nd striker as he is a CM. And TBH can't think of a better 2nd striker in the world.

Plus SG is far too good a player to be a CM in what Rafa sees as a CM.

[El Jefecito]

Sorry mate your saying he will be a significant upgrade on xabi which is absolute balls imo.It is very debatable whether barry is better then xabi or not which I certainly dont think he is but how can you say he will be a significant improvement over xabi when having played in the prem for something like 10 years his best season was last when he got something like 8 assists and about the same in goals which were mostly pens, and this is with him playing week in week out for villa which xabi certainly didnt do last season did he.

My main problem is why are we going to spend 15m+ who based on his best season is likely to get something like 5 goals considering he wont be taking pens, would this not be better spent on a quality wide player who can provide us with the quality we require in the attacking end.

You also say we need width not wingers but I would argue the players we have who play out wide do provide good width mainly pennant but they dont consistenly deliver a good final ball and are most games ineffective especailly against the top teams.

Hansen is right we are miles behind manu in the wide areas, Nani would definitly get in our team but is mostly on the bench for them.We need a player who is going to help us break teams down,Barry is not going to help us here, Keane will get some goals and create a few but these two players are not going to bridge the gap between us and the other 2-3.

You think it's balls, I think not. Opiniions, eh?

I watched the 4-2 game against Arsenal in the CL the other day and it only re-inforced to me, that even though Barry is not a patch on Xabi, that he would be a far more EFFECTIVE player.

[JohnDoe]

ok so show me our first team formation with both keane and barry.

Reina
Degen Carragher Agger Dossena
Mascherano
Gerrard Barry
Kuyt Torres Keane

Plus SG is far too good a player to be a CM in what Rafa sees as a CM.

I think Rafa doesn't trust SG as a CM in a two-man midfield.

[El Jefecito]

Sorry mate your saying he will be a significant upgrade on xabi which is absolute balls imo.It is very debatable whether barry is better then xabi or not which I certainly dont think he is but how can you say he will be a significant improvement over xabi when having played in the prem for something like 10 years his best season was last when he got something like 8 assists and about the same in goals which were mostly pens, and this is with him playing week in week out for villa which xabi certainly didnt do last season did he.

My main problem is why are we going to spend 15m+ who based on his best season is likely to get something like 5 goals considering he wont be taking pens, would this not be better spent on a quality wide player who can provide us with the quality we require in the attacking end.

You also say we need width not wingers but I would argue the players we have who play out wide do provide good width mainly pennant but they dont consistenly deliver a good final ball and are most games ineffective especailly against the top teams.

Hansen is right we are miles behind manu in the wide areas, Nani would definitly get in our team but is mostly on the bench for them.We need a player who is going to help us break teams down,Barry is not going to help us here, Keane will get some goals and create a few but these two players are not going to bridge the gap between us and the other 2-3.

I guess Rafa was looking at it from the perspective of, for example,

Xabi = 16m
Barry = 16m

Hmm, nett spend = 0. And I get a better EPL player.

Need to look at the nett-nett.

[El Jefecito]

Sorry mate your saying he will be a significant upgrade on xabi which is absolute balls imo.It is very debatable whether barry is better then xabi or not which I certainly dont think he is but how can you say he will be a significant improvement over xabi when having played in the prem for something like 10 years his best season was last when he got something like 8 assists and about the same in goals which were mostly pens, and this is with him playing week in week out for villa which xabi certainly didnt do last season did he.

My main problem is why are we going to spend 15m+ who based on his best season is likely to get something like 5 goals considering he wont be taking pens, would this not be better spent on a quality wide player who can provide us with the quality we require in the attacking end.

You also say we need width not wingers but I would argue the players we have who play out wide do provide good width mainly pennant but they dont consistenly deliver a good final ball and are most games ineffective especailly against the top teams.

Hansen is right we are miles behind manu in the wide areas, Nani would definitly get in our team but is mostly on the bench for them.We need a player who is going to help us break teams down,Barry is not going to help us here, Keane will get some goals and create a few but these two players are not going to bridge the gap between us and the other 2-3.

I have a lot of sympathy for JP. IMO good strikers make bad crosses into good crosses. We've never had a striker that can do that. Just makes JP look worse than he is

[El Jefecito]

Reina
Degen Carragher Agger Dossena
Mascherano
Gerrard Barry
Kuyt Torres Keane



I think Rafa doesn't trust SG as a CM in a two-man midfield.

And it is not difficult to see why. SG does not have the intellectual horsepower to play in anything other than a free-role.

[el matador]

And it is not difficult to see why. SG does not have the intellectual horsepower to play in anything other than a free-role.

somewhere in the region of 21 goals and 23 assists suggests that there's nothing wrong with his 'intellectual horsepower'

[JohnDoe]

And it is not difficult to see why. SG does not have the intellectual horsepower to play in anything other than a free-role.

Yep. If you want the best of Gerrard, you need to let him do everything. Attacking, defending, pulling wide, roaming behind the striker... His role last season as a 2nd striker was nearly perfect, but there was one problem.

When teams sat back deep and marked him, especially against top sides, he found it difficult to get involved. I think Rafa wants to move him just a bit further back to get him more involved in the build up of our game. He can't do that with Alonso/Masch behind him, because both of them very rarely venture forward and when Gerrard drops deep, Torres is completely isolated.

Putting him next to another 50-50 player in Barry offers Gerrard the right balance in midfield to do what he pleases, and gives us a more dynamic edge.

On another note, swapping the shape of the midfield trio from a /\ to a V shape actually gives us more width, because it offers both Gerrard and Barry the ability to drift wide next to the full back while Kuyt/Keane tuck inside next to Torres.

It actually makes a lot of sense and it's very similar to a 3-4-3, except you've got a DM instead of a 3rd CB.

[JohnDoe]

somewhere in the region of 21 goals and 23 assists suggests that there's nothing wrong with his 'intellectual horsepower'

I think what he means is that Gerrard is at his best when not given a clear role.

[rage]

Yep. If you want the best of Gerrard, you need to let him do everything. Attacking, defending, pulling wide, roaming behind the striker... His role last season as a 2nd striker was nearly perfect, but there was one problem.

When teams sat back deep and marked him, especially against top sides, he found it difficult to get involved. I think Rafa wants to move him just a bit further back to get him more involved in the build up of our game. He can't do that with Alonso/Masch behind him, because both of them very rarely venture forward and when Gerrard drops deep, Torres is completely isolated.

Putting him next to another 50-50 player in Barry offers Gerrard the right balance in midfield to do what he pleases, and gives us a more dynamic edge.

On another note, swapping the shape of the midfield trio from a /\ to a V shape actually gives us more width, because it offers both Gerrard and Barry the ability to drift wide next to the full back while Kuyt/Keane tuck inside next to Torres.

It actually makes a lot of sense and it's very similar to a 3-4-3, except you've got a DM instead of a 3rd CB.

mmm you know i actually see the sense of this providing our fullbacks can get up front, support and of course cross the ball. makes even more significant the signings of the two new fullbacks.

[El Jefecito]

somewhere in the region of 21 goals and 23 assists suggests that there's nothing wrong with his 'intellectual horsepower'

IMPACT players can do that, SG is 100% instinct and there is no-one better at it.

I'm not meaning to make him out as a bad player, he isn't, there are few better. But don't try to convince me he is a "smart" player. Won't wash.

[el matador]

I think what he means is that Gerrard is at his best when not given a clear role.

what he meant was that he thinks gerrard lacks tactical discipline in that the two central midfield players have to be able to sit and protect their defenders whereas gerrard's natural game is to push on.

and I completely disagree because gerrard started his first team career as a defensive midfield player or holding player. in istanbul against ac milan when they brought on serginho for the last part of the game, benitez moved gerrard to right back to mark him and stop his crosses.

This boy can do everything and this fact should not be trivialised.

Because of our shortcomings in attack he pushes on because if he doesnt score or create we general dont and havent until torres came onboard.

If we had more power in attack, im sure we would see a more disciplined gerrard playing as one of the two midfielders.

[JohnDoe]

mmm you know i actually see the sense of this providing our fullbacks can get up front, support and of course cross the ball. makes even more significant the signings of the two new fullbacks.

The two full backs are a huge sign of what Rafa wants to see from his team.

He has gambled on Degen, a full back whose main attribute is attacking and going forward with pace, while having an obvious weakness in the defensive aspect of his game. Think about it, Rafa signing a defender who's supposedly weak at defending...?

And Dossena, while being a very good full back in Italy and much more accomplished than Degen, played as a left wing back for Udinese, in a 3-4-3.

We've also got the Masch, who covers an insane amount of ground every game and is probably the most complete DM in the world. Is there a better player to cover for a full back like Degen than Masch?

[El Jefecito]

Yep. If you want the best of Gerrard, you need to let him do everything. Attacking, defending, pulling wide, roaming behind the striker... His role last season as a 2nd striker was nearly perfect, but there was one problem.

When teams sat back deep and marked him, especially against top sides, he found it difficult to get involved. I think Rafa wants to move him just a bit further back to get him more involved in the build up of our game. He can't do that with Alonso/Masch behind him, because both of them very rarely venture forward and when Gerrard drops deep, Torres is completely isolated.

Putting him next to another 50-50 player in Barry offers Gerrard the right balance in midfield to do what he pleases, and gives us a more dynamic edge.

On another note, swapping the shape of the midfield trio from a /\ to a V shape actually gives us more width, because it offers both Gerrard and Barry the ability to drift wide next to the full back while Kuyt/Keane tuck inside next to Torres.

It actually makes a lot of sense and it's very similar to a 3-4-3, except you've got a DM instead of a 3rd CB.

GREAT POST

I disagree with most of it, but see where you are coming from.

SGs problem is that in Rafas system, he cannot play CM. Rafa's teams are based on cereberal CMs and SG is not that

The real point of contention is that, SGs under performance in 1, yes, 1 game, against manure, should not be allowed to stand against the fact that he got 20 +20 last year.

Hopefully, all agree, that games against Manure are one-offs and that given the proper support that there is no question that SG will excell as 2nd striker against even them.

Everyone beats up on the formation and SG when we play manure, but the fact is that just about everyone underperformed in those games, so to pin it on just SG or 4231, is to miss the point entirely.