An honest assessment before the start of the season

[Deano73]

I think the accusation of an attack without shape is slightly unfair. My interpretation would be that the end aim is to have an attacking quartet that is relatively free and capable of changing position. I think this has always been Rafas aim and is a tactic that United used to great effect last year. I think an example of United last year might be instructive - I know a lot of their fans felt they struggled early in the season and lacked their usual penetration. I believe this to be a side effect of a tactic that relies heavily on inter-player understanding and movement and that even friendlies don't really bring the required stresses and pressures that breed the right combinations. We also have the problem that one player who is likely to be key to our pattern of play (Babel) missing at the minute.

I understand that this is not entirely at odds with the JohnDoe's statement that Gerrard's position may not be clarified until it is to late. I however am of the belief that like United last year the only way to win the league these days is to aim for the best maximum team efficiency even if it comes at a higher 'start up cost'. Last season we started well but we weren't building a pattern as effectively as United and the injuries to Agger, Alonso and Carragher set us back and we didn't regain momentum until too late.

The stuttering performance against Liege doesn't overly worry me but I do think it indicates that we may have to accept some less than cohesive performances in the first few games. The important thing for me is that we still win and I think the addition of Keane means that we do have one more source of goals that could help us convert what may have been draws last season into wins.

That said I think we really lack a left sided option with a left foot. My suspicion is that Rafa will move between related variations of 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1 and in particular the 4-4-1-1 variant would benefit from a player who whether or not satisfies peoples lust for a winger is capable of moving naturally wide and delivering crosses both from deep and the byline and ideally running beyond the forwards too.

Don't often post but just wanted to say top post DWW. The voice of reason as always mate. And top post from John as well. Great reading lads! Keep it up.

[JohnDoe]

I think the accusation of an attack without shape is slightly unfair. My interpretation would be that the end aim is to have an attacking quartet that is relatively free and capable of changing position. I think this has always been Rafas aim and is a tactic that United used to great effect last year. I think an example of United last year might be instructive - I know a lot of their fans felt they struggled early in the season and lacked their usual penetration. I believe this to be a side effect of a tactic that relies heavily on inter-player understanding and movement and that even friendlies don't really bring the required stresses and pressures that breed the right combinations. We also have the problem that one player who is likely to be key to our pattern of play (Babel) missing at the minute.

I don't have a problem with an interchangeable attack. I think every good attack should be unpredictable and versatile. However, sometimes we're complicated for the sake of being complicated. Matches are won by simple things, and in these simple things we fall. It's all well and good if Kuyt's movement is fantastic and he's an incredibly hard worker, but if he's slower than most full backs in the league and incapable to come out on top in a 1 on 1 situation, it's going to be very difficult to use his apparent versatility to our advantage in whatever formation we use. Some sheer quality and simplicity is missing from our game.

United had Ronaldo and Rooney, the two most important players in their attacking system, missing a significant amount of game time during the start of last season due to suspension and injury respectively. They had to play Tevez alone up front for a few games and I think that, more than anything, is responsible for their early struggle.

[blacky]

Great thread. Some excellent posts JohnDoe & DWW. Completely agree. Rafa wants fluidity in attack, players switching posiitions in the attacking third. This IMO is very hard to defend against. I can see us signing another attacking left sided player before the windoww closes aswell as agreeing a deal for Barry. Call me optimistic but I think with these 2 players we will be in the mix at the end of the the season.

[-V-]

Good post mate.

I agree with alot of that. Especially the bit about Lucas and Babel. They might no realise it but those 2 player have a lot on their shoulders this season. They are the key to our success. They have had their 1 bedding in season and i have shown alot of promise lately. It's time for those guys to now step up and fulfil their potential. I have every confidence they will

[James P]

TBH, i haven't dreaded a season more than this one (& i'm touching 40.....); i just don't think we have what it takes & a 6-8 final position come the end iof the season is on the cards (aka villa, yid's, bluenoses, etc)

I hope i am so wrong..............

I think you will be entirely wrong. Yes, we are still a couple of players short of the ideal squad, and yes we need to work out how Keane and Gerrard fit into the same starting 11, but think about who you're saying will finish above us:

Villa - some decent acquisitions, but if we steal Barry from them they're severely weakened. And honestly, who out of their starting 11 would you swap with ours? Barry possibly, Ashley Young to play on the left...and that's it.

Everton - no signings, AJ gone, chief exec resigned, Kenwright open to offers, and a manager refusing to commit his long-term future. If one of Yakuba, Arteta, Lescott or Cahill gets injured, they're in trouble. If more than one of them gets injured, they'll struggle to finish in the top half.

Spurs - some very good signings, but the loss of Keane and probably Berbatov means that they will have to buy at least one new striker. Trying to bed in an entirely new front quartet (Modric, Dos Santos, possibly Arshavin, possibly Santa Cruz) is a massive task. And this from the side who scored and conceded over 60 goals in the league, but who will have the same defence, and an all new attack. Not the way round I would have done it!

I understand the degree of pessimism, and to an extent I agree, but my concern is not that we finish outside the Top 4, but that we lose touch with the teams above us. Over the course of a season we will definitely finish fourth or above, but our inability to make it 'above' and not fourth is worrying.

[johnnyfish]

I just wonder how we will get on if teams flood the midfield like Standard and we find ourselves unable to play through them (as we did on Wednesday night.) With Crouch gone we have no plan "B." For all he's faults we was good at bringing the long ball down and laying it off.

We have nobody able to do that now...............our best results against arsenal were gained using this contrast.

If we have no wide men................and by that I mean wingers..........not Kuyt and Yossi
then what's plan "B"?

Because I don't think the new boys at where we are gonna need them to be for a while with one injured and the other still struggling to get a grips with the league

[-V-]

I think you will be entirely wrong. Yes, we are still a couple of players short of the ideal squad, and yes we need to work out how Keane and Gerrard fit into the same starting 11, but think about who you're saying will finish above us:

Villa - some decent acquisitions, but if we steal Barry from them they're severely weakened. And honestly, who out of their starting 11 would you swap with ours? Barry possibly, Ashley Young to play on the left...and that's it.

Everton - no signings, AJ gone, chief exec resigned, Kenwright open to offers, and a manager refusing to commit his long-term future. If one of Yakuba, Arteta, Lescott or Cahill gets injured, they're in trouble. If more than one of them gets injured, they'll struggle to finish in the top half.

Spurs - some very good signings, but the loss of Keane and probably Berbatov means that they will have to buy at least one new striker. Trying to bed in an entirely new front quartet (Modric, Dos Santos, possibly Arshavin, possibly Santa Cruz) is a massive task. And this from the side who scored and conceded over 60 goals in the league, but who will have the same defence, and an all new attack. Not the way round I would have done it!

I understand the degree of pessimism, and to an extent I agree, but my concern is not that we finish outside the Top 4, but that we lose touch with the teams above us. Over the course of a season we will definitely finish fourth or above, but our inability to make it 'above' and not fourth is worrying.

Totally agree. I am 100% certain that we will finish in the top 4. Whether we can challenge is totally dependant on our early form. Man Utd are weakened without Ronaldo for the first 6 weeks and we have to make sure we take advantage. We gotta win those tricky away ties and beat the Mancs at Anfield on Sept 13th. Less draws and grind out more wins starting tomorrow PLEASE

[dww]

I don't have a problem with an interchangeable attack. I think every good attack should be unpredictable and versatile. However, sometimes we're complicated for the sake of being complicated. Matches are won by simple things, and in these simple things we fall. It's all well and good if Kuyt's movement is fantastic and he's an incredibly hard worker, but if he's slower than most full backs in the league and incapable to come out on top in a 1 on 1 situation, it's going to be very difficult to use his apparent versatility to our advantage in whatever formation we use. Some sheer quality and simplicity is missing from our game.

United had Ronaldo and Rooney, the two most important players in their attacking system, missing a significant amount of game time during the start of last season due to suspension and injury respectively. They had to play Tevez alone up front for a few games and I think that, more than anything, is responsible for their early struggle.

I'm not sure that Kuyt is a guaranteed first choice this season though - with a possible attacking 4 of Gerrard, Babel, Keane and Torres. In his defense though I think Kuyt finished last season strongly - I don't think he has to be beating the fullback to be honest - at the end of last season he was doing very well in terms of making him self space with movement and delivering good balls. I would like to see him occupy a role in our squad not dissimilar to that played by Park for United.

I don't recognise us being deliberately over complicating attacks. I do agree though that at times we don't get the simple things (such as short quick passing) right. I felt we got better at it as last season progressed though and that Keane is a player who should help us in this regard. I see what you are saying about needing greater quality but I don't think we are that far off and we have players like Lucas and Babel who are at an age where they could well improve and give us more than we have seen so far.

I think we will have to be luck this year to go head to head with the top two but I do thin that we for the first time in a long while can put a team out with three reliable goal threats and at a number of other players who will also contribute (Benayoun and Babel for example).

[BrooklynRed]

I'm not sure that Kuyt is a guaranteed first choice this season though - with a possible attacking 4 of Gerrard, Babel, Keane and Torres. In his defense though I think Kuyt finished last season strongly - I don't think he has to be beating the fullback to be honest - at the end of last season he was doing very well in terms of making him self space with movement and delivering good balls. I would like to see him occupy a role in our squad not dissimilar to that played by Park for United.

Agreed. Prior to the Liege match, the network had a look at all of the goals from 07-08 LFC matches in the Champions League (showing the road to the semi-final), and I was shocked to be reminded how many HUGELY IMPORTANT goals Kuyt scored for us last year in Europe. If our backs overlap more this year and he can find himself in the box more frequently instead of slogging onto hoofed balls up the right channel, he will shine for us. For me, both "wingers" need to work to establish an understanding with Arbeloa/ Dossena and be flexible out there; Not every ball needs to be

a) chase ball into corner
b) fail to beat your man
c) poor cross into the box
d) sprint upfield to win the ball back

So many of our biggest and best goals came with Torres holding the line and breaking at the proper moment to stay onside and score up the middle. We didn't score too many goals with service from the wings, period. So, I am of two minds on this; Without better play out wide, we are one dimensional. Our one dimension is pretty much unbeatable, tho. I think we have a chance to contend if everyone stays healthy, but mostly, I am not looking forward to frustrating nights like this past Wednesday, where we should be running a side off the park and our stubborn system doesn't allow players to adapt.

[dww]

Agreed. Prior to the Liege match, the network had a look at all of the goals from 07-08 LFC matches in the Champions League (showing the road to the semi-final), and I was shocked to be reminded how many HUGELY IMPORTANT goals Kuyt scored for us last year in Europe. If our backs overlap more this year and he can find himself in the box more frequently instead of slogging onto hoofed balls up the right channel, he will shine for us. For me, both "wingers" need to work to establish an understanding with Arbeloa/ Dossena and be flexible out there; Not every ball needs to be

a) chase ball into corner
b) fail to beat your man
c) poor cross into the box
d) sprint upfield to win the ball back

So many of our biggest and best goals came with Torres holding the line and breaking at the proper moment to stay onside and score up the middle. We didn't score too many goals with service from the wings, period. So, I am of two minds on this; Without better play out wide, we are one dimensional. Our one dimension is pretty much unbeatable, tho. I think we have a chance to contend if everyone stays healthy, but mostly, I am not looking forward to frustrating nights like this past Wednesday, where we should be running a side off the park and our stubborn system doesn't allow players to adapt.

Another thing about last season which I found baffling was how rarely wither of the wide players or Gerrard ran into the area between the back post and the middle of the goal when we were attacking on the flanks. Following up in these areas (and providing an easy target for a cross) seems to gain United and Arsenal a lot of goals. In Europe I thought (at times) Kuyt did this well as did Benayoun in games against the 'lesser' PL teams. It is one of the things I most miss about Garcia who always seemed to be looking for those runs.

[rage]

That said I think we really lack a left sided option with a left foot. My suspicion is that Rafa will move between related variations of 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1 and in particular the 4-4-1-1 variant would benefit from a player who whether or not satisfies peoples lust for a winger is capable of moving naturally wide and delivering crosses both from deep and the byline and ideally running beyond the forwards too.

we also lack a right sided option who can do what you describe unless we play gerrard there with specific instructions to stay on that side of the pitch.

i'm really anxious that we're all talking about the same gaps that we have every year

[barnes10]

this is a great thread. do you know why. because it undelines why rafa has signed the players he has. no one can pick one first eleven out of 3 or 4 that is clearly the strongest. and it means that at any one time, we can do without 1 or even two of our 'first teamers' without obviously weakening the 11.

this means opposing managers can't prepare to counter what we do.

possibilities. we have many possibilities.

[dww]

we also lack a right sided option who can do what you describe unless we play gerrard there with specific instructions to stay on that side of the pitch.

i'm really anxious that we're all talking about the same gaps that we have every year

I'm happy with Gerrard (and to a lesser extent Pennat as an occasional option) doing that though. Also it is more about a player like Gerrard having the ability to go that way and do it for me - not necessarily being posted wide right and staying there.

That said if we adopt a more flexible approach to our attacking players as we have at times in the past then whoever is up there with Gerrard has to ensure that someone at least is always looking to exploit both flanks. To be fair to him Kewell is one of the few players who when fit had the intelligence to make those sort of moves. I think Garcia at times did too but I remember as many games where all our attack ended up on the left because Gerrard cut inside when they played together and it frustrated me a great deal.

[Exiled_red]

I think it will be difficult to tell what our first choice system will be until a few matches after the Olympics when everyone is back and fit to play. It might be that Gerrard in particular has to play a number of positions different to where Rafa wants him to play most of the season