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    The Rafa Thread

    It seems that every thread, no matter what it’s about is boiling down to an, I love / I hate Rafa.

    We may as well have it out in one thread and leave the other threads to discuss on topic.

    IMO Rafa has done some great things, and he has done some not so good things. If you like him or not he is here for at least this season and therefore think he should be backed by us. If things haven’t changed come May then start the bashing again.

    Some key points raised on every other post.

    He has blown **** loads of money on crap players:

    Well yes and no, he has bought in players for positions that we needed strengthening, we needed a right back he bought one, we needed a winger he bought one, we needed a striker he bought half a dozen. Now if you agree with the players he bought or not is irrelevant, no one really knows how these players are going to turn out. He bought Agger and Skittles for not much money and they have turned out awesome, he bought Reina awesome, Alonso awesome, I’m not even going to mention JM and FT.

    Every manager has to buy players who may or may not turn out good, Slur Alex bought god knows how many keepers, centre halfs and central midfielders.


    The Xabi Alonso incident:

    I’m a big Xabi fan, I think he is a great, great player. But sometimes the manager falls out with a player for whatever the reason. Again lets take Slur Alex, sold Ince, Becks and RVN when they were arguably at the peak of their abilities. In these incidents no matter who the player is you have to back the manager.

    The youth system:

    Another excellent thing Rafa has done IMO, we now have youngsters who I would genuinely be excited about coming through to the first team. Yet there are some people on here who think it’s OK to bash our young lads when playing if they don’t reach the dizzy heights of their first team counterparts. Even the mighty Stevie G started off playing OK at right back. The fact that Plessis has come in and done a job in one of the key positions on the pitch shows how much potential is there, OK he shouldn’t be a first team starter (except when the rest of the midfield is in China) but some of the comments about the lad are just plain disgraceful.

    The ****ing wings:

    Now here is where my biggest problem with the gaffer, he has said for 2 seasons that we need better width, well for **** sake go out and buy a creative wide player.

    This should have been the first player bought in this transfer window and I am hugely disappointed we have started the season without this player.

    Rotation:

    Rotation for the sake of rotating is not good, have a team for the carling cup, maybe even the FA cup. Then for the league have your bestish team out every week. OK I’m not saying play the same team every game, but no more than 2-3 changes.

    #2
    On the "****ing wings".

    Has he not tried to get in class players? Alves, Simao, Figo, Silva(?), Quaresma, etc.

    I don't think it's because he doesn't want to, he's either not been backed with the money, the players haven't been available (silva) or the players themselves decided against it (Figo,Quaresma).

    He's consistently had to settle for 2nd and 3rd choices (JP) or long shots (Leto). That's my reading of it anyway.
    Last edited by El Jefecito; 18-08-08, 05:08 PM.
    The Crushing Machine MKII

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      #3
      Originally posted by El Jefecito View Post
      On the "****ing wings".

      Has he not tried to get in class players? Alves, Simao, Figo, Silva(?), Quaresma, etc.

      I don't think it's because he doesn't want to, he's either not been backed with the money, the players haven't been available (silva) or the players themselves decided against it (Figo,Quaresma).

      That's my reading of it anyway.
      I'm talking for this season, last season he got Babel, who I think is no where near the finished article but **** loads better than Quaresma, it's just that I can't swallow the fact that we've bought no one for either wing.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by lfc1394 View Post
        I'm talking for this season, last season he got Babel, who I think is no where near the finished article but **** loads better than Quaresma, it's just that I can't swallow the fact that we've bought no one for either wing.
        Babel sees himself as a striker, not a winger. He never looks comfortable out wide to me.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by lfc1394 View Post
          I'm talking for this season, last season he got Babel, who I think is no where near the finished article but **** loads better than Quaresma, it's just that I can't swallow the fact that we've bought no one for either wing.
          But I don't think you can purely blame Rafa for not getting them in there are other reasons as I outlined.

          Sure, I'm pissed we didn't get Alves, but laying that on Rafa is a bit off.
          The Crushing Machine MKII

          Comment


            #6
            I know this post is going to sound very pro-Rafa but I'm not one of the RCDNW group. But I recognise the fact that under Rafa's management we are moving forward maybe not as much as some would like, I also think that what the club needs to be sucessful is stability (we lack the money to go out and do a Chelsea).

            Transfers: EVERY transfer is a gamble, some pay off some don't Morientes is a typical example, almost everyone thought he'd be a great signing but he wasn't. I think Rafa has been good in the transfer market when he's been going after his 1st choices, Torres, Mascherano, Alonso etc, the problem for me has been the players we've had to sign as 2nd choices or on a budget.

            Youth Set-up: I think we now have a decent youth set up better than we've had for a while, it's taken a while to establish but the key issue for me here is if Rafa will give the young players a chance by including them more in the first team squad. This season will tell us alot more about Rafa's idea on this now as he's had a while to work with a few of these players so we should start to see the rewards.

            Rotation: I've always been a big critic of the rotation system, but lst season I started to see the point. Looking at Arsenal towards the end of last season and certain players were out on their feet Fabregas in particular and I wondered how much there is in this. What worries me in particular is the games where Rafa does this, last year he rested Torres in premiership (Portsmouth I think) and played him in the Carling Cup (vs Reading??) If we're resting players I'd rather we maximised the number of PL games they play and minimise the number of Cup games. Also don't rest too many players at once as it throws the team balance out.

            The Wings: I'd like to see us sign at least one wide player (I'm still hoping we will) but in all honesty I would struggle to say who I'd like to sign from who appears to be available.

            Xabi/Barry Situation:
            I'm not sure what's gone on with Rafa and Xabi, but I would prefer the whole Xabi/Barry/any transfer not to be played out so publically.
            The only gracious way to accept an insult is to ignore it; if you can't ignore it, top it; if you can't top it, laugh at it; if you can't laugh at it, it's probably deserved.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by El Jefecito View Post
              But I don't think you can purely blame Rafa for not getting them in there are other reasons as I outlined.

              Sure, I'm pissed we didn't get Alves, but laying that on Rafa is a bit off.
              Im not at all mate. My problem isn't with the personel, like I said he needed a right winger and bought JP, I unlike some people don't have a problem with that. OK JP turned out ****e, but I'm not blaming Rafa for that far from it.

              My problem is we ain't bought anyone this season, after 2 seasons of Rafa saying we need wingers!! I mean no one, not 'he bought a kid from azerbaijan who cost 10p and I think he is ****e'.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by lfc1394 View Post
                Im not at all mate. My problem isn't with the personel, like I said he needed a right winger and bought JP, I unlike some people don't have a problem with that. OK JP turned out ****e, but I'm not blaming Rafa for that far from it.

                My problem is we ain't bought anyone this season, after 2 seasons of Rafa saying we need wingers!! I mean no one, not 'he bought a kid from azerbaijan who cost 10p and I think he is ****e'.
                I'm with you now.

                An interesting question. If Parry et al had said no to Barry 4 months ago. Do you think we would have got Bentley?
                The Crushing Machine MKII

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by El Jefecito View Post
                  I'm with you now.

                  An interesting question. If Parry et al had said no to Barry 4 months ago. Do you think we would have got Bentley?

                  Maybe, still I know GB can play wide, but he is not really a wide player. I would still have wanted a wide player even if GB had signed.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    our football today is no different than under houllier. yes we've improved in the calibre of some players but for me there's far too much of a hint of the emperor's new clothes under rafa.

                    of course i'll back him 100% etc etc but hand on heart we are no more competing in the premier league today than we did under houllier, our style of play is just the same, ffs some of us on here are now talking about counter attack football, that and hoof ball football is the same **** we did with houllier and owen.

                    i really wish this forum existed during the end of houllier and would like to see a list of criticisms of our style of play and the players we had then and compare them to our shortcomings today.

                    Before the white knight rafa defenders jump down my throat i am not rafa bashing, i just think 4 seasons later we should have moved on. My comparisons between rafa and houllier is that:

                    - both have bought their fair share of crap, for houllier's cheroue i give you pennant
                    - both relied on 2 players gerrard and owen/torres
                    - both approached games with defense as a priority
                    - both failed to buy players for the wide positions that delivered
                    - both got a stay of execution because of cup successes
                    - both try to play too much through the middle
                    - both lack players that had that extra bit of creativity, houllier had it in litmanen and never played him, rafa had it in garcia but has failed to replace him
                    - both kept faith in their favorites for far too long. kuyt and heskey
                    - both went chasing more central midfielders when it was clear we needed to prioritise elsewhere.

                    of course the off the pitch crap doesn't help but houllier also suffered a heart attack that clearly had an impact on him.

                    whether i liked houllier or not (and for what its worth i wanted him gone the season b4 he went) rafa at best has this season to prove he can compete in the league. everything else, the youth setup, the champions league, the players he attracts are all irrelevant if we fail to compete.


                    -

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I would like to respond to your post mate.

                      Originally posted by rage View Post
                      our football today is no different than under houllier. yes we've improved in the calibre of some players but for me there's far too much of a hint of the emperor's new clothes under rafa.

                      Hmmm..Every club in Europe likes to avoid us. There must be something good about our footbal.

                      of course i'll back him 100% etc etc but hand on heart we are no more competing in the premier league today than we did under houllier, our style of play is just the same, ffs some of us on here are now talking about counter attack football, that and hoof ball football is the same **** we did with houllier and owen.

                      i really wish this forum existed during the end of houllier and would like to see a list of criticisms of our style of play and the players we had then and compare them to our shortcomings today.


                      We are in no way in the same situation. We looked lifeless on the field in GH final year. It was obvious to everyone that we were on a downward spiral. We had ****e players on high wages whom we were struggling to sell.


                      Nobody would blink an eye if we go ahead and win the Champs league this year. If at the end of the 2003-04 ( GHs last season) I had gone out and said we would win the Champs league next year , I would have been admitted to an institution.

                      Before the white knight rafa defenders jump down my throat i am not rafa bashing, i just think 4 seasons later we should have moved on. My comparisons between rafa and houllier is that:

                      - both have bought their fair share of crap, for houllier's cheroue i give you pennant

                      I half agree with you here. Rafa should have bought a better standard of winger but dont compare Rafa's flops with GH's flops. We had trouble shifting GH's flops as most clubs were not even meeting their wage demands. Rafa's flops either break even or get us a reasonable return on the investment. I am not a big Pennant fan but he is not even in the same league as Cheyrou in terms of level of flopness. I would be happy to retain Pennant as a squad player.

                      - both relied on 2 players gerrard and owen/torres

                      Every team relies on two or three major players. Take Rush and Dalglish out of our 80s team and would we have won so much.

                      - both approached games with defense as a priority

                      I agree with you here. Rafa is overly defensive at times.

                      - both failed to buy players for the wide positions that delivered

                      I agree with you here. I know there maybe number of reasons but after 4 years and considering the amount we have spent we must have been able to get a half decent wide player

                      - both got a stay of execution because of cup successes

                      Agree. However Rafa's cup success is the freaking Champions league. So dont compare it with GHs cup success. But I think this season Rafa should win atleast one cup and challenge for the league.


                      - both try to play too much through the middle

                      I agree. We looked out of sorts against a congested defense until Torres came up with that beauty.

                      - both lack players that had that extra bit of creativity, houllier had it in litmanen and never played him, rafa had it in garcia but has failed to replace him


                      Did Litmanen do anything decent after he left LFC.The way LFC fans criticize GH for "misusing" Jari, one would think he went on and won 5 world player of the year awards after that. Garcia is barely able to make first team at Atletico.


                      - both kept faith in their favorites for far too long. kuyt and heskey

                      Agreed. I respect Kuyt for his workrate and his ability to step it up in Europe but we need a better right winger in the league.

                      - both went chasing more central midfielders when it was clear we needed to prioritise elsewhere.

                      Agreed. I like Barry as a player and I think he would be better in our midfield than Xabi but using the money we are going to loose in this swap on a quality creative player would be more beneficial.


                      of course the off the pitch crap doesn't help but houllier also suffered a heart attack that clearly had an impact on him.

                      whether i liked houllier or not (and for what its worth i wanted him gone the season b4 he went) rafa at best has this season to prove he can compete in the league. everything else, the youth setup, the champions league, the players he attracts are all irrelevant if we fail to compete.


                      -

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by rage View Post
                        our football today is no different than under houllier. yes we've improved in the calibre of some players but for me there's far too much of a hint of the emperor's new clothes under rafa.

                        of course i'll back him 100% etc etc but hand on heart we are no more competing in the premier league today than we did under houllier, our style of play is just the same, ffs some of us on here are now talking about counter attack football, that and hoof ball football is the same **** we did with houllier and owen.

                        i really wish this forum existed during the end of houllier and would like to see a list of criticisms of our style of play and the players we had then and compare them to our shortcomings today.

                        Before the white knight rafa defenders jump down my throat i am not rafa bashing, i just think 4 seasons later we should have moved on. My comparisons between rafa and houllier is that:

                        - both have bought their fair share of crap, for houllier's cheroue i give you pennant
                        every manager in the league has bought ****e.....very unfair, every chance he has spent proper money he has delivered EVERY TIME

                        - both relied on 2 players gerrard and owen/torres
                        thats an insult to reina, agger, carra, masher etc = as important
                        both approached games with defense as a priority
                        yet we have scored plenty of goals the last few season, over a 100 last year, did we not score more than anyone?- both failed to buy players for the wide positions that delivered
                        agreed, although we have tried with alves, simao, etc u blaming rafa for that????- both got a stay of execution because of cup successes
                        both DESERVED a stay of execution because of cup success, rome wasnt built in a day- both try to play too much through the middle
                        agreed, but isnt that the wingers point??
                        - both lack players that had that extra bit of creativity, houllier had it in litmanen and never played him, rafa had it in garcia but has failed to replace him
                        again money talks
                        - both kept faith in their favorites for far too long. kuyt and heskey
                        does a job....need more though
                        - both went chasing more central midfielders when it was clear we needed to prioritise elsewhere
                        [I]midfield is good now though, no?[/I]
                        of course the off the pitch crap doesn't help but houllier also suffered a heart attack that clearly had an impact on him.

                        whether i liked houllier or not (and for what its worth i wanted him gone the season b4 he went) rafa at best has this season to prove he can compete in the league. everything else, the youth setup, the champions league, the players he attracts are all irrelevant if we fail to compete.


                        -
                        _____________________________________

                        Weak willed, Wank or do they have a masterplan?

                        Think we have the answer..Slot!!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          For me in the current environment we have to accept that almost any manager will struggle to break the strangle hold of United and Chelsea at the top of the league. However we have seen that Wenger has managed at least once (last year) to mount a serious title challenge in similar circumstances to us. This has come at a cost of no silverware and being less successful than us in Europe.

                          So what should the criteria be to judge Rafa on? For me we have to look at two main areas:

                          1/ This seasons league form: We have to show progression. I'm not sure exactly what I would demand but at the least at the end of February I want to feel like we will win the league. I think Chelsea and United have had a huge advantage on us for several years and it will be exceptionally hard to win but we do need to make whoever wins it really work for it.

                          By the end of the season I want to see us playing a well established team pattern and looking like we can score against anyone including United. Every season we have had periods usually at the end of the season when we have looked excellent against the poorer teams in the division and we have often looked good against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal but we don't consistently look capable of breaking down packed defenses from determined teams.

                          2/ Young players need to be making an impact: We don't have the money to constantly compete with united/Chelsea in the transfer market and we do have the seven man bench therefore we need to bring players through from the youth ranks. Partly the future simply has to come from within for financial reasons but also we need to be able to attract up and coming players in the style of Arsenal.

                          In terms of Europe and the other competitions I think we have proved we can compete and so long as we make a decent fist of them all I would be happy to sacrifice them all for a better league performance. The question is what would Rafa do? I think this is key if we can't sustain at least a CL and PL campaign then we have to look at what he is/we are doing in terms of squad building.

                          In terms of Alonso - he says he talked to him about his ideas - by which I take it he means his wish to sell him. if that is true then I don't think he can have much complaint with how he has been treated. Rafa has to try and do what he feels needs to be done to improve. There appears to have been a good deal of pissing about done at board level which has hampered this in the summer and it does genuinely give Rafa more leeway for me. While Alonso is here though Rafa has to use him when he is the best option and trust him as he has previously and not hold the lack of move against him.

                          I think that actually given what is available he has sought the right targets in the market. On the other hand he has at times seemed to lack a plan B in case we fail in our bids. This as much as the slowness of our negotiations needs to be rectified. It will be interesting to see whether he sticks out for Barry or relents and goes for another left sided player.
                          "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
                          -- William Blake

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Just been reading the Mirror when I came back from work today. Also just found this online

                            Keane’s purchase took Benitez’s gross spending to above £200m since 2004 and his net to around £120m. He likes to portray Liverpool as “a little club” but in the same period Manchester United’s gross spend is £134m and their net, £72m. Benitez believes he still needs another signing to make Liverpool contenders, Gareth Barry, but the club’s American owners and Benitez’s nemesis, chief executive Rick Parry, are disinclined to meet Aston Villa’s £18m asking price — despite briefings to the contrary.

                            Apparently in the period since Rafa has been at LFC, Arsenal's net spend is also only £3m. Not sure how accurate this is. I think he has been backed well enough to be honest.

                            My only issue with Rafa's time in charge is failure to address the wide positions and not challenging in the league. In terms of youth set-up, cup runs etc he's been top notch. He's given me one of the best moments as an LFC fan in 2005.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Well, looking at stats from another site, his gross spending is 182.6m and net spend is 90.5m. Considering Rafa was completely rebuilding a squad and AF was just reinforcing an already title winning squad, the difference in the net spend is not that big a deal. Oh and if you take out the John Obi Mikel deal where ManU got 8m for basically organising his bus trip to Chelsea, it reduces the difference in both club's net spend to nearer 10m.

                              By the way, I'm not a member of rcdnw either.

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