Rafa Benitez issues Liverpool FC warning

[Craig_H]

Just to throw a question into the mixer here

When Rafa won the title with Valencia he beat Real Madrid and Barcelona. They used to spend money left right and centre ala Chelsea and Man Utd. However, he still managed to win the title twice. At that point wasn't he saying it's not always about the money you spend and you can spend what you like and you still have the possibility of not winning the title.

Now, why can he not do this at Liverpool? Why is other teams spending now the reason we aren't challenging? If he can do it with Valencia why not with us?

Is it to do with the different league and different tactics/mentality required which aren't in line with the way he likes his teams to play?

It's because a far lower points tally will win you La Liga, and therefore you can get away with being cautious and drawing more games, rather than winning them. It's different in the PL, you need close to 90 points to win it in most cases.

[Craig_H]

Tougher league? are you sure?

It is tougher, there's no arguing that. You have MUCH less room for error in the Premier League. You cant afford to drop 2 points and draw so many games.

[Rashid]

As Craig said, Rafa could win La Liga with a low points total and lose more games... at the time Madrid were all over the place and concentrating on the CL and Barcelon were fighting it out with Houllier's Liverpool in the Uefa Cup.

[jrd7]

But he has spent more than anyone bar Chelsea since he has been here. He needs to stop moaning about money.

This is why everyone thinks you're a ****. We've had the same discussion on another board where you used the Barcelona example. Even Carra has come ot in his book recently and said both him and gerrard went to see Rafa when he arrived, and said "I don't think you realise how bad we are"

Rafa had to spend that money. You constantly ignore the other relevant points to keep spouting your "he's had enough cash" bollox.

Let me turn the question around, you've seen the calibre of players rafa likes when he's got the cash, do you think if the scum had replaced fergie with him, he'd have rocked up and replaced the whole squad (having to give most of them away, because they were that ****) with 3/4/5/6 million pound players like he's had to do here? Do you think Rafa would have been better off coming in and adding 1 £20 million player every year to add to our squad of Diao, Cheryou, Le Gems, Heskey, Murphy, traore etc? what ****ing difference would Torres have made to that team? **** all, kept us treading water.........the same as owen did for us.

We were a **** team that scraped into 4th place in Ged's last season. We weren't Barcelona with a ridiculousl youth team, we weren't Arsenal with a back four and striker already in place, the whole playing staff needed utting out and replacing.

I look forward to reading a post from you on another board where you highlight the way Rafa spends more than anyone else, completely ignoring every other thread you've had the same discussion in.

[Craig_H]

Whilst i agree with a fair amount of that, the whole playing staff did not 'need putting out and replacing', that's a vast exaggeration.

[Rashid]

We weren't Arsenal with a back four and striker already in place, the whole playing staff needed utting out and replacing.

So this "whole team that needed replacing" - I'd buy that if it didn't win the European Cup. I've said many times and can say so again without resorting to petty name calling that alot of that "team" could have become "squad players" allowing us to buy in top quality players. As I said, Rafa has won more with Houllier's "dud" than he has with his own. Carra may have said "we are really bad" but that doesn't have to mean all of the players.

You mention Arsenal there and what Wenger inherited, IMO he inherited worse than Rafa did. The whole back four were over 31 with Bould aged 36! He re-invigorated them and they were lucky to have him just as much as the other way round. He went about changing the midfield, attack and the style of play very quickly and quietly. He also won the league in his first full season - how good is that? No 5 year plans and "small base" excuses.

As for the "ridiculous Barcelona youth team" - how many contributed to Rijkaards brilliant first 3 years? Leo Messi, Carlos Puyol and who else? The rest were all bought.

Rafa inherited a TEAM containing Dudek, Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Riise, Hamann, Gerrard etc - which is a fairly decent backbone to a team. Add to it Cisse, Baros, and Kewell and it doesn't look all to bad. In addition players like Smicer, Murphy and Traore etc could have done a job as reserves and squad players allowing him to buy in quality players instead he went out spending a lot on 50 new players.

As I said, Houllier's team were bad under his leadership but Rafa won a European Cup and FA Cup with a lot of those players so there is no reason why they couldn't be retained and improved over time.

I think we can all agree, he must deliver this season given the time he has been here and the money he has spent - I don't mean a trophy, I just want to see us challenging for the league (as Carra said we need to) and improve on our caution and defensive attitude (as Gerrard has alluded to).

I don't think I needed to call you a **** to get my point across did I?

[Harv]

So this "whole team that needed replacing" - I'd buy that if it didn't win the European Cup. I've said many times and can say so again without resorting to petty name calling that alot of that "team" could have become "squad players" allowing us to buy in top quality players. As I said, Rafa has won more with Houllier's "dud" than he has with his own. Carra may have said "we are really bad" but that doesn't have to mean all of the players.

You mention Arsenal there and what Wenger inherited, IMO he inherited worse than Rafa did. The whole back four were over 31 with Bould aged 36! He re-invigorated them and they were lucky to have him just as much as the other way round. He went about changing the midfield, attack and the style of play very quickly and quietly. He also won the league in his first full season - how good is that? No 5 year plans and "small base" excuses.

As for the "ridiculous Barcelona youth team" - how many contributed to Rijkaards brilliant first 3 years? Leo Messi, Carlos Puyol and who else? The rest were all bought.

Rafa inherited a TEAM containing Dudek, Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Riise, Hamann, Gerrard etc - which is a fairly decent backbone to a team. Add to it Cisse, Baros, and Kewell and it doesn't look all to bad. In addition players like Smicer, Murphy and Traore etc could have done a job as reserves and squad players allowing him to buy in quality players instead he went out spending a lot on 50 new players.

As I said, Houllier's team were bad under his leadership but Rafa won a European Cup and FA Cup with a lot of those players so there is no reason why they couldn't be retained and improved over time.

I think we can all agree, he must deliver this season given the time he has been here and the money he has spent - I don't mean a trophy, I just want to see us challenging for the league (as Carra said we need to) and improve on our caution and defensive attitude (as Gerrard has alluded to).

I don't think I needed to call you a **** to get my point across did I?

[barnes10]

Johnny that was a poor post mate IMO.

Danny Murphy - how has Babel replaced Murphy? Babel only came last year, I think Nunez, Benayoun and Kuyt played more in the Murphy role.
I thought alonso replaced murphy

Henchoz - Failure or not, Pelligrino was shocking.
pellegrino was brought in as a player coach to teach the other defendes. in this he was great

Alou Diarra - Currently in the French national squad and could have covered in midfield and in defence.
agree with rashid here. he should have been loaned out a couple of seasons to develop.

Milan Baros - Has done better for us than Morientes and Kuyt have done in attack. disagree. milan was never a team player and thats what rafa - rightly - goes for. what has he done since? no-one thought morientes was a bad buy or much of a gamble due to his ability in the air. just didnt work out. kuyt is much better for the team that baros ever was.

Hamann - Masch only came last season, he could have stayed as a squad player.he was old and tired and wanted a longer contract. his choice to go as much as ours

Warnock - Mid table? What then of Degen etc? Dossenns currently doesn't look much better than Warnock - besided he is another who could have stayed on as a squad player. agree with rashid. he is a squad player and young and english. i feel dossena will be better however as already he's shown glimpses of class that warnock never had

Cisse - Tell me what has Kuyt/Bellamy/Morientes done on the wing and in attack that Cisse can't.Cisse couldnt keep the ball in play or pass to a teammate. torres is a massive upgrade which is the main striker role. i believe cisse was unhappy unless he was up front. something kuyt would not let bother him.

Finnan - He would still be our best right back if he stayed.probably true. agree that i don't see the obvious reason to get rid of him.

As I said quite clearly, it is not that this lot are good enough for the first team, it's that they could have saved us money by staying as squad players. Instead we went and spent MORE on players not much better if at all.

there are a lot of factors that we don't know about. and things that champ manager won't take into consideration like team player, morale in the camp, working for your team mates, leadership on the pitch, injury prone or not etc etc and of course, raising some money. i don't doubt say that murphy could have stayed on as the 4th central midfielder but would he have been happy. i would put money on him wanting a move if thats what he'd have been told. the players wishes have to be taken into consideration too dont they.

maybe you'd extend the astronomical contract of a player you didnt deem good enough for the first team. its clear rafa wont.

[barnes10]

As i alluded to in other posts Johnny, Yossi, Dirk and Pennant cost £23m combined and their collective contributions are a fraction of that which a £20m player would have had, IMO.

That trio is the most obvious example that springs to mind.

But again, we're going round in circles here and it's the 'same argument over and over again' which is cropping up, and this annoys people, myself included.

The rafa backers will use the same 'excuses' and the critics will use the same 'mistakes'. Neither side will accept the other viewpoint and it'll go on and on and on forever, until the mods decide to ban the critics, even though they're behaving in the same way as the backers, albeit with a different point of view.

Nothing will be solved, so in the words of the legend that is Duncan Bannatyne, i'm out.

ok benayoun was bought a season later and is a good squad player who can come into a number of positions and be effective. he's just not a starter. he's also great against the lesser teams.

but pennant and kuyt were bought as we had 16 mill to spend on a striker and a winger. kuyt couldnt cut it as the main striker so he's shifted out wide and pennant is up for sale.

if we were to sell both, my view is that we'd recoup between 10-12 mill. thats not bad but the 4 mill loss undelines the true cost of not being able to go for first choice targets. i believe his first choice targets were torres and alvez/simao. clearly they would have cost a combined 40 mill and that's the problem. utd and chelsea can do that but we couldnt / cant.

[barnes10]

So you dont remotely have any agreement whatsoever that in most cases, you get what you pay for? You've had to trawl back years and you've managed to come up with what, 6 examples? You do need to go on, sorry.

How about Torres, Mascherano, Essien, Rooney, Berbatov, Drogba, Rio Ferdinand, Evra, Ronaldo, Tevez etc etc?

Nobody is saying that it's 100% guaranteed, but it is FACTUAL that in the majority of cases, the top players cost big money and that £6m signing are very very rarely world class players.

If you dont agree with that, then there's no point in debating with you, as i'd be better off trying to convince someone that water isnt wet.

you're point is totally valid and to get massive impact you have to buy big. but rafa has himself answered this. he has said that buying one big player with all his budget is a nice option but its a massive risk.

if you're into nice sayings such as 'you get what you pay for' then straight back at you is 'all eggs in one basket.' as we know, for every big buy that is a success, there's generally a big buy thats a flop. so would you spunk all of your money and your reputation/job on a 50-50? thats what you're telling rafa to do.

[Rashid]

he has said that buying one big player with all his budget is a nice option but its a massive risk.

I think that's the key mate, Rafa refuses to take risks either on the pitch or in his transfers - he is very cautious and I think that needs to change.

[barnes10]

FACT: Rafa won more with Houllier's "duds and misfits" than he has with his "team".

he also finished more than 20 points off the title with them and its the title that you're apparently judging him on. he's now 11 so lets see where we are at the end of the seaosn in that regard.

the ac milan in 05 against 07 is a totally valid point too. the poorest team in the 90 mins won both those titles so, as a team, we were better in the 07 final. luck counts in a 1 off game. nevermind our comeback but dudek's save from sheva is the ONLY thing that gives your point any credence. if it wasnt for that, rafa is a master tactician for getting to 2 finals and 1 own goal away from a third in 4 years. that's not far from footballing genius.

how about hamman and smicer on and slotting gerrard at right back. 3 massive decisions that turned the game around and kept them (silvinho out).

smicer had the game of his life that he has never before or since equalled. hamman as discussed was old and wanted a longer contract and gerrad finished the game playing out of position.

if it wasnt for them, then we'd have been humiliated in that final thanks to houllier's misfits like traore, baros and kewell. gerrard, alonso and smicer scored that night don't forget.

07 we controlled the game and that was rafa's team. 08 was riise's own goal as we know. small things and luck make a big difference.

[barnes10]

I think that's the key mate, Rafa refuses to take risks either on the pitch or in his transfers - he is very cautious and I think that needs to change.

agree. but i think this is a natural progression once you've a solid base and then add the top quality to that. i think we all see that now's the time he has to do it and based on this incomings and outgoings over the last 18months, i think his intentions are clear. this is happening. now all we need is to get rid of the yanks

[Skillz]

Thanks, but unfortunately its is not brilliant, just a balanced and thought out argument, something certain members should thin about.

So true. I would add that as we HAVE to run at a profit or close the total focus on transfer fees whilst virtually no discussion on the wage spend renders the whole argument void, IMO.

Top quality players want top wages, end of. Rafa had to rebuild this squad whilst carrying the crap on our list for years (Le Tallec finally leaving this summer). These players were given ridiculous wages consiodering their talent. This is the reason Rafa had to buy so much crap and he did it well because he bought cheap or free players he could sell on.

I find the lack of discussion on wages astonishing considering we have to keep our wages in check in order to balance the books. It has IMO had a massive bearing on how Rafa has gone about rebuilding the squad.

[Skillz]

Say in the past two years he has had HIS team, and the previous two years he had mainly HOULLIER'S team...

Which team won more trophies?

By that token I'd say that he could have kept some of them as squad players and improved the first team without having to buy 50 players, of which only about 40 have turned out Liverpool class.

How well are those players going now Rashid? Where are they playing?