How we can get number 19

[dww]

I would suggest that in order to win the league we need to go on a run pre-Christmas similar to the ones we have frequently done at the end of the season. I think that it is momentum that helps win you leagues - getting to the point where even disappointing draws no longer feel as bad as the one against Stoke did.

Despite so middling results and performances we are in a very good position this year but we need to start building on that. Both our interplay and finishing has been lacklustre nearly all season and we haven't seemed to click as a team in any game except United when we were without Torres and Gerrard who over the season are the two players most likely to win us games.

Obviously at the end of the day it is the points total that wins you the league but the games against the other top teams have a big psychological impact on the season. They can be a double edged sword in that you can concentrate too much on them and then disappoint against lesser teams or we could throw of some of the fears we have shown in previous years now we know we can beat all of the other teams challenging for the league.

[el matador]

That says a lot about the Spanish league for you, and anyway. Real conceded in that game and concede a lot of goals in most matches.......we don't.

The point i was trying to make was that Rafa's valencia were probably the best counter attacking side i've ever seen. They were totally ruthless and tore teams apart when they made mistakes or lost the ball when attacking valencia's goal.

In this country there will be teams like stoke that wont go beyond the half way line because their mentality is that ok we know we probably wont win but we dont want to lose the game and thus will settle for a point and then defend for their lives.

In spain even the lower sides play attacking football and try to win every match. So creating a counter-attacking team full of pace but little invention is great when teams have a go but when teams have 10 men behind the ball and wait for you to break them down it requires more than just great counter attacking ability.

[Skillz]

In all honesty I haven't seen highlights of the game but from listening to it on the radio we battered them, should have been a 4 - 5 nil jobbie.

If Stevie's goal stood as it should have we would have battered them. They parked a triple decker bus in front of goal, and we struggled to break them down. TBF we were unlucky on occassion but they did defend very well and achieved what they wanted.

I will say though they had absolutely no scoring ambition and it was a poor advertisement for the PL and that was no fault of our own.

[SB]

I spent 10 minutes being creatively funny there, the least you ********s could do is laugh.

May I suggest that you don't give up your day job

[Craig_H]

Craig, don't mean to sound pedantic but a couple of things here.

Firstly I'm more then a bit confused by your statement about me missing about doing this against the lesser side when I clearly wrote - "That's as long as we don't do what Arsenal did in 2006/07 raised their game against the big teams but let themselves down against the Evertons, err I mean little clubs".

Like we did against Stoke then?

Secondly I still believe that if we get at least 13 points against the we will almost certainly win the league, this is based on facts from stats since 2002/03, where as your notion is based on your personal opinion.

It's also dependent on us beating most of the lesser sides too, is it not?

After all, what happens if we get 13 points against the top 3, and then draw at home to Spurs, Wigan, Fulham, Hull and West Brom?

[Woobus]

It's also dependent on us beating most of the lesser sides too, is it not?

After all, what happens if we get 13 points against the top 3, and then draw at home to Spurs, Wigan, Fulham, Hull and West Brom?

Of course it does but it doesnt mean we should go overboard due to drawing with Stoke. Last year we had a better record against the teams outside the top 4 than United, so its hardly like we have been poorly against the lower sides.

[Craig_H]

Of course it does but it doesnt mean we should go overboard due to drawing with Stoke. Last year we had a better record against the teams outside the top 4 than United, so its hardly like we have been poorly against the lower sides.

I agree that we shouldnt go overboard about drawing with Stoke and Stoke alone. The problem is we drew so many home games last season which we shouldnt have drawn and some of us think there were very similar hallmarks visible in the Stoke game, as there were last season. In short, if drawing with Stoke is a one off, that's not a problem. If it happens with another 2 or 3 silly home games we should be winning, then the same problems as last season wont seem to have been corrected.

[Woobus]

I agree that we shouldnt go overboard about drawing with Stoke and Stoke alone. The problem is we drew so many home games last season which we shouldnt have drawn and some of us think there were very similar hallmarks visible in the Stoke game, as there were last season. In short, if drawing with Stoke is a one off, that's not a problem. If it happens with another 2 or 3 silly home games we should be winning, then the same problems as last season wont seem to have been corrected.

If we can improve our record against the top 4 then it wouldnt matter if we get the same amount of points from the rest of the games as last year.
Its the point Powerpack is trying to make, all the other top 4 will drop similar amount of points to the lower sides, we have to make sure against the top 4sides we take points of the every match to be in with a chance.
If we had of had United record against the top 4 we would have won the league, if they had of had our record they would have finished 4th with less points than we did.
Cutting out these silly draws will make it a hell of a lot easier to win the league but all the top teams drop silly points.

[Craig_H]

They all do drop silly points, but rarely does a side who drops 15 home points win the title.

Man Utd dropped 5 home points last season, Arsenal dropped 10. Chelsea dropped 14 but had the best away record in the league to compensate.

The point isnt that we cant afford to drop silly points, because everyone does, but you cant afford to do it as often as we do and Stoke at home was one of the most silly pair of points we'll drop all season.

[Woobus]

The point isnt that we cant afford to drop silly points, because everyone does, but you cant afford to do it as often as we do and Stoke at home was one of the most silly pair of points we'll drop all season.

Ahh but United dropped more silly points than us last year and still won the league, dont think it really matters if its home or away that you drop the points its the amount you drop.
Its the top 4 results that win or lose you the league it seems, well they seem to be the most important and its were we lost the league last year and united won it.

[Craig_H]

Agree to disagree then. I dont think they dropped more silly points than us and if we beat 6th-20th, we'll win the league regardless.

[Woobus]

Agree to disagree then. I dont think they dropped more silly points than us and if we beat 6th-20th, we'll win the league regardless.

Fair enough, as you say hopefully we wont drop as many silly points then the results against the top 4 wont be as important.

[lfc1394]

The point i was trying to make was that Rafa's valencia were probably the best counter attacking side i've ever seen. They were totally ruthless and tore teams apart when they made mistakes or lost the ball when attacking valencia's goal.

In this country there will be teams like stoke that wont go beyond the half way line because their mentality is that ok we know we probably wont win but we dont want to lose the game and thus will settle for a point and then defend for their lives.

In spain even the lower sides play attacking football and try to win every match. So creating a counter-attacking team full of pace but little invention is great when teams have a go but when teams have 10 men behind the ball and wait for you to break them down it requires more than just great counter attacking ability.

Lets just dispel one myth, that you can't win the league by playing dull negative counter attacking football. Chelsea did it twice in a row.

Now I'm not saying we do play that style, we do sometimes as do all teams.

[el matador]

Lets just dispel one myth, that you can't win the league by playing dull negative counter attacking football. Chelsea did it twice in a row.
Now I'm not saying we do play that style, we do sometimes as do all teams.

chelsea used to overpower teams and dominate posession. they werent just a counter attacking team.

happy to dispel that myth too.

[powerpack]

Like we did against Stoke then?

Craig that's one match that we should have won. We didn't get the luck that day but its only one game and this happens to every big team every season.

It's also dependent on us beating most of the lesser sides too, is it not?

After all, what happens if we get 13 points against the top 3, and then draw at home to Spurs, Wigan, Fulham, Hull and West Brom?

Again Craig, I never said it wasn't and clearly stated that, please read my last sentence in my original post and ingrain it in your head! My point is that statistics from the last few seasons show that beating the big teams and not monumentally failing against the little clubs (not just 1 0-0 at home to Stoke) should win you the league. Where as getting 1 point all season against the big ones and then whooping the smaller ones is less likely to win you the league. I'm finding it hard to see where you're going with this!