Any Truth In This?

[Reece]

Well this has gone down a predictable route

Why can't people on here just accept that others feel differently about certain things. It's fine to argue your point but why the constant need to do so by abusing the other person.

I'm locking this thread as it's only going to go one way from now on.

[MindGuerrillas]

The Scum

from TLW

Today, 11:29 AM
Paisley1
Forumite

I can't think of a single t-shirt ever sold by Liverpool FC (or anyone else attaching themselves to the club) that berates Manchester to such an extent. Can you imagine the outrage if someobody started selling t-shirts with a picture of a plane wreck on them? Even if they did, I'd be amazed if any Liverpool fan actually bought one.

How sick can they be? It’s a shame they don’t put all their efforts into supporting their club rather than worrying about somebeody else's. They are worse than Everton in that respect.

Have you ever listened to their crowd during a random league match? At least half their songs contain the word "Liverpool" or "Scousers". They are obsessed - I actually feel quite sorry for them.

We Won It Three Times (Without Killing Anyone) T-Shirt from TShirtsUnited.com

[MindGuerrillas]

latest Oliver Kay article. Highlighted bit is utterly disgraceful

Merseyside vitriol: Oliver Kay responds

TheGame - Times Online - WBLG: Oliver Kay

It seems like I opened a can of words with a piece yesterday about certain things that were chanted at the Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Some have accused me of failing to understand the context in which “2-0 to the Murderers” was sung by a number of Liverpool supporters, so here goes...

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do fully understand the context. I’m not exactly a novice when it comes to Merseyside football. But, from where I’m sitting, that context – Everton and Manchester United supporters gleefully chanting “murderers” for years without, it seems, the slightest clue about what happened at Heysel in 1985 – does not excuse what was sung. It doesn’t make the chant funny, clever or brilliant, as some seem to think. The chant sucks, as do the ones that provoked it in the first place.

Some considered it genius because it silenced the Everton taunts (“You should have seen their faces …”) and because it meant that Liverpool fans have “reclaimed” – or at least taken ownership of – the “murderers” tag, much like the gay community has with the word “queer” or the black community has with the word “nigger”. Some have likened it to Tottenham's "yid" chants or Robbie Fowler’s “reclaiming” of the drug-abuse rumours back in 1999 with his infamous cocaine-snorting celebration.

I take the point. I just don’t agree with it.

The difference here is that we are talking about a disaster in which 39 people died. And yes I know it was a disaster that could have unfolded at just about any European match involving just about any English club over a period from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s and that it took a particular set of circumstances – not least inadequate security arrangements and a crumbling abomination of a stadium, which Uefa should never forgive themselves for selecting – for it to happen when it did. Believe me, I know all that and I have frequently found myself trying to explain these things to people who think they know better.

I also know that a disturbing large proportion of Everton and United supporters take undue pleasure in singing about Heysel in order to score points. I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters.

Someone called my reaction “fake moral outrage”. There’s nothing fake about it and I wasn’t outraged, just surprised and, yes, disappointed. I could have chosen to ignore the atmosphere on Saturday and particularly the "2-0 to the Murderers" chant, but I felt and still feel very strongly about it - just as I do the United fans whom I have condemned in the past for chanting despicable things about Hillsborough and for making light of their own disaster in the interests of point-scoring. I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?”

It just comes down to what you find acceptable. I don’t find the "murderers” chant acceptable. I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May). I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?” acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers” acceptable. I don’t find chants about Michael Shields or Harold Shipman acceptable. I find the chants about Steven Gerrard’s family utterly despicable, as I do the Evertonian “joke” of covering your face with your hand as if to signify someone being crushed at Hillsborough. I actually feel sickened as I write this.

Maybe all of this makes me someone who has spent so long in the press box that he has lost touch with the tribal nature of football’s rivalries. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Maybe it is also possible to get so wound up in that tribal warfare that you lose sight of where the boundaries of taste lie. Some will not care, but, for me, the “2-0 to the Murderers chant” was a long way over that boundary. I know full well what the explanation is. I just don’t think that it constitutes any kind of excuse.

[dave edwards]

Just fkin sick

About the menatlity of most of the scum tho

[Reece]

I'm re-opening this thread because I want to post this response from Oliver Kay which I think is excellent. Any abuse towards each other for having different views and different levels of acceptance of what they feel is right or wrong will result in the thread being locked again.

Merseyside vitriol: Oliver Kay responds
It seems like I opened a can of words with a piece yesterday about certain things that were chanted at the Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Some have accused me of failing to understand the context in which “2-0 to the Murderers” was sung by a number of Liverpool supporters, so here goes...

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do fully understand the context. I’m not exactly a novice when it comes to Merseyside football. But, from where I’m sitting, that context – Everton and Manchester United supporters gleefully chanting “murderers” for years without, it seems, the slightest clue about what happened at Heysel in 1985 – does not excuse what was sung. It doesn’t make the chant funny, clever or brilliant, as some seem to think. The chant sucks, as do the ones that provoked it in the first place.

Some considered it genius because it silenced the Everton taunts (“You should have seen their faces …”) and because it meant that Liverpool fans have “reclaimed” – or at least taken ownership of – the “murderers” tag, much like the gay community has with the word “queer” or the black community has with the word “******”. Some have likened it to Tottenham's "yid" chants or Robbie Fowler’s “reclaiming” of the drug-abuse rumours back in 1999 with his infamous cocaine-snorting celebration. I take the point. I just don’t agree with it.

The difference here is that we are talking about a disaster in which 39 people died. And yes I know it was a disaster that could have unfolded at just about any European match involving just about any English club over a period from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s and that it took a particular set of circumstances – not least inadequate security arrangements and a crumbling abomination of a stadium, which Uefa should never forgive themselves for selecting – for it to happen when it did. Believe me, I know all that and I have frequently found myself trying to explain these things to people who think they know better.

I also know that a disturbing large proportion of Everton and United supporters take undue pleasure in singing about Heysel in order to score points. I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters.

Someone called my reaction “fake moral outrage”. There’s nothing fake about it and I wasn’t outraged, just surprised and, yes, disappointed. I could have chosen to ignore the atmosphere on Saturday and particularly the "2-0 to the Murderers" chant, but I felt and still feel very strongly about it - just as I do the United fans whom I have condemned in the past for chanting despicable things about Hillsborough and for making light of their own disaster in the interests of point-scoring. I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?”

It just comes down to what you find acceptable. I don’t find the "murderers” chant acceptable. I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May). I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?” acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers” acceptable. I don’t find chants about Michael Shields or Harold Shipman acceptable. I find the chants about Steven Gerrard’s family utterly despicable, as I do the Evertonian “joke” of covering your face with your hand as if to signify someone being crushed at Hillsborough. I actually feel sickened as I write this.

Maybe all of this makes me someone who has spent so long in the press box that he has lost touch with the tribal nature of football’s rivalries. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Maybe it is also possible to get so wound up in that tribal warfare that you lose sight of where the boundaries of taste lie. Some will not care, but, for me, the “2-0 to the Murderers chant” was a long way over that boundary. I know full well what the explanation is. I just don’t think that it constitutes any kind of excuse.

[Reece]

And that bit in bold, if true - is disgusting.

[pondus]

Shocking

hard to believe it could be true

[Reece]

They spend more time obsessing over us than they do themselves the sick *******s. I wonder if there is anything our club can do to get this t-shirts stopped?

[Reece]

I'm going to combine this with the thread in the Liverpool forum as I can see both going down the same path....

[PTP]

it's a shame - i kinda see elvoz's point - it's almost a last resort, it's an attempt of taking the piss in an ironic way but i do feel we may have stooped to low to get the point across - as the article says - no football chant should ever mention horrific tradgedies such as harold shipman, hilsborough, munich, heysel etc etc

[Shaggy]

Absolutely appalled about the United players singing that. In a way you can get over the fact their inbred, moronic, witless supporters sing it...you come to expect it from such pondlife, but the players themselves? FFS. I can imagine Neville, Giggs, Braap Braap and all the other cunts at it.

This whole episode is ****ing depressing. Like Oliver Kay I am tired of trying to explain to clueless Mancs (and to a lesser extent, Bitters) why their 'murderers' chant is so pitifully wide of the mark and out of order. I'm fed up of it and to a small degree it is affecting my enjoyment of the game/banter with rivals. I've even had one long friendship (with a Manc) go down the drain after it all boiled over.

[BFG]

Sadly idiots like this have always been around and always will be, and they're among every group of otherwise good supporters in the country.

The less media coverage it gets the better as it only makes it more fashionable for other morons to follow suit so while Kay is reading the riot act from the moral highground he's really only stoking the fire.

[Reece]

The less media coverage it gets the better as it only makes it more fashionable for other morons to follow suit.

Part of me wants the fact that the actual Manc players were singing it given more coverage in the media so more people can see what despicable creatures they are.

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

maybe i have it wrong mate

they ram that one down our throats forever and a day

its ironic
not meant to be taken as anything but a piss take at them

Yer it sounds like when Derby last year sang "What a waste of money" about Torres and then when he scored we would sing "What a waste of money" nothing personal at Torres ofcourse but to take the piss out of their fans.

[BFG]

Part of me wants the fact that the actual Manc players were singing it given more coverage in the media so more people can see what despicable creatures they are.

I can understand that if it's true. However, whether the likes of Anderson, Vidic, Nani etc would even understand what they were actually singing is another matter. Rooney, Giggs, Neville etc have no such excuse if it's true.