Vitor Flora

[Tatterdemalion]

it' such a big/tough debate this though, the whole youth player/ressie issue. I honestly don't think anyone in our reserves/youth players will go on to start more than 50 games for liverpool. I just don't see it, really really hope i'm wrong - but right now we have two first XI's

GK
reina cavlierie

Defenders
Arbeloa Carragher Agger Skrtel Hyppia Dossena Aurelio Degen

Midfielders
Gerrard Alonso Mascherano Lucas Riera Pennant Benayoun

Attackers
Torres Keane Kuyt Babel N'gog


Outside of that 22 man squad we must have at least 20 youngsters/reserves you can name of the top of your head who just won't get a look in. The closest to the first are El Zhar, Plessis, Insua, Darby - probably in that order. Obviously i'd like to see say Darby coming through but i just can't see it. And i havent thought about Nemeth, Pacheco, Spearing FLora etc etc etc Hobbs, Anderson!!

The only way i could maybe see this happening is if we won the league this season with our current squad - if we won the league, it would a hell of an achievement release tons of pressure of the players and manager and then rafa might be an a position then to turn round and bin off

degen
a left back
a centre back (sami as he retires for example)
Lucas
Benayoun
Pennant
Ngog

and then promote and give chances and a ful season to impress and develop to the likes of
Darby
Insua
Hobbs
Plessis
Elzhar
Pacheco
Nemeth

etc - but at the moment rafa can't afford to play these players, if he brings them in and they aren't good enough, are title hopes slip away etc he would get slaughtered.

Anyway - I hope I get proved wrong and we see 3 or 4 of them as regular first teamers here in 4 years time.

Hopefully for the carling cup game he will sent a load of them on the pitch so we can get a closer look at them at least.

I think you have the general point, which has been made before, that most would rather promote from within than buy another squad player, and that the money would be better spent agglomerated for a quality right/left back/winger or striker.

I think it's a strong argument. I actually think it will happen too, I just think we are a few years off it.

Rafa seems to have the opinion that outrageous competition at youth/reserve level is good for players. I don't agree, I think kids need to play games.

However, I think it is fair to say that Rafa may know a little bit more about it than do I.

[ukfootballfan101]

My opinion with regards to the squad list you disected is that it is the fourth worst post I have read on this forum.

That Wiejl guy has only played 2 reserve games but yet you have deemed him surplus to requirements.

You say you would keep Bruna and Simon but yet get rid of Nemeth? How, why? Bruna has shown virtually nothing for the reserves this year and clearly should be playing for the Under 18's - but Liverpool can't do this as he was promised he would go straight into the reserves. The reason why he left Madrid was because they weren't giving him indications as to when they were gonna promote him to the reserve or C team or whatever the **** they call it (I'm not saying Bruna should be got rid of - he has a lot prove/develop). But yet Nemeth has a sensational scoring record both from his previous club, his international team and also our reserve team. In fact, hasn't he scored more goals than he's played games?

Simon, well he's decent but Brouwer is keeping him out of the reserve team which says it all. But we'll keep him just because you've never seen him play.

And for your information, the majority of reserve games are shown on LFC.TV and have been for the last few years. A huge portion of people on this forum have seen the reserves play on numerous occasions. And although I'm pretty much an unknown degenerate on this forum, I think it's fair to say that I speak for 99% of the people who browse this forum who all agree that Nemeth is an outstanding player and possibly one of the best young natural strikers we've had on our books since Fowler. People are comparing him to Dalglish FFS!

Ok, firstly I hope I'm wrong about Nemeth, I hope he goes on to become the greatest striker we've ever had - I just don't think it will happen. Comparing him to the greatest player we've ever had is BS, next someone will say he's the next Zidane!

There is no point in Nemeth playing in the reserve team anymore, with the number of goals he scored last year he can't develop anymore, he's just using up a space in the team that Simon or Bruna could be using to help their development. If Nemeth wasn't injured which team would he be playing in? He refused to go out on loan, would you drop Keane for him? or maybe Torres?

It's safe to say if he was fit he would be playing in the reserves which would be pointless.

IMO Nemeth has been over hyped due to a few decent performances against sub standard opposition. Playing in the prem is completely different to the reserves, the reserve games are much slower paced, less phyisical and less skillful. I honestly don't think he has what it takes to step up to the first team.

Playing Bruna in the reserves rather than the under 18's is good for him, it will help him develop faster, he is a bit light weight and inexperienced but IMO is one of the most technically gifted players we have. Real Madrid were gutted when he left, they were complaining they had lost one of the best up and coming players in the world

[stevie_gerrard_8]

But the question is, when are they going to get their chance?

[Tatterdemalion]

yeah it makes sense - and i do see where u are coming from - but there is an arguement, that had guthrie (or any youngster really maybe guthrie is a bad example ) been given more of a chance he would have developed and improved and be at a level were he could compete for his place

Now if lucas, does go on to be say the next Steven Gerrard - then great, what a piece of business etc - but what if say, by the end of this time next season he hasn't stepped up and improved at all and isn't getting the games cause he so far behind gerrard alonso and macherano that we sell him.

I see your point, and i want the best players possible playing for liverpool - my 'arguement' (well not really any arguement, more of a concern) is we have say 20 players who have undoubted potential in the ressies and the youth set up and i don't see any of them even getting close to being a first team regular - purely cause they don't get a chance to shine/develop/play at the senior level.

Ok maybe - look at this another way, maybe guthrie/lucas wasn't a great example.

What Voronin and then N'gog - as opposed to Nemeth

Nemeth is one of those players who has been highly talked about for a few years now and that he was expected to break through - granted he has had injuries which is a blow - but he isn't close to the 1st team, and last term was blocked by voronin(signed on a free) and this season blocked by N'gog (signed for about £1m)

So nemeth will struggle to play at all for the first team this season, unless we had horrific injury crisis or he found some unreal form and 5 goals a game for the ressies and he had to play.

So come next season, say N'gog hasn't quite settled so is shipped out but will nemeth be ready to make the step up - probably not cause he hasn't been developed and how can i put this 'introduced' into the senior level. So we sign another cheap striker to fill up the squad. etc - Nemeth misses out again and eventually goes out on loan for experience, before being sold for £3m to someone average

I get you, and I worry about that too.. Very well put, all of it.

[Tatterdemalion]

Flora, he's a year younger than Nemeth, could he develop into a player as good as Nemeth in a years time? maybe

Given that you would sell Nemeth that doesn't make any logical sense.

If Flora only has the ability to maybe be as good as Nemeth (i.e. not potential to be better) then you must sell him too.

[ukfootballfan101]

I get you, and I worry about that too.. Very well put, all of it.

I agree to. But if he were good enough he could prove himself every day in training.

Bojan at Barcelona got quite a few games last year, and they IMO three of the best strikers in the world (Messi, Eto'o and Henry).

Pato at Milan got lots of games last year from when he became eligible to play in January - and Milan have decent strikers to.

Its a shame he picked up an injury we would then have seen if Rafa has faith in him.

[ukfootballfan101]

Given that you would sell Nemeth that doesn't make any logical sense.

If Flora only has the ability to maybe be as good as Nemeth (i.e. not potential to be better) then you must sell him too.

Thats a little pedantic, I was speculating, maybe he has the ability to be a far better player than Nemeth, only time will tell.

[saj]

Ok, firstly I hope I'm wrong about Nemeth, I hope he goes on to become the greatest striker we've ever had - I just don't think it will happen. Comparing him to the greatest player we've ever had is BS, next someone will say he's the next Zidane!

There is no point in Nemeth playing in the reserve team anymore, with the number of goals he scored last year he can't develop anymore, he's just using up a space in the team that Simon or Bruna could be using to help their development. If Nemeth wasn't injured which team would he be playing in? He refused to go out on loan, would you drop Keane for him? or maybe Torres?

It's safe to say if he was fit he would be playing in the reserves which would be pointless.

IMO Nemeth has been over hyped due to a few decent performances against sub standard opposition. Playing in the prem is completely different to the reserves, the reserve games are much slower paced, less phyisical and less skillful. I honestly don't think he has what it takes to step up to the first team.

Playing Bruna in the reserves rather than the under 18's is good for him, it will help him develop faster, he is a bit light weight and inexperienced but IMO is one of the most technically gifted players we have. Real Madrid were gutted when he left, they were complaining they had lost one of the best up and coming players in the world

Oh my god, you are deluded! I know forums are for expressing opinions but there is just nothing factual about what you've said! Bruna has not shown any technical ability and if you have apparently watched the reserves play you would know this. The only thing Bruna has shown of good quality is his free kicks which are very impressive. He's had the ****e kicked out of him every game he has played and this in my opinion is denting his confidence. I will say Pacheco has shown great technical ability although he too has way too much to prove until is considered even for the 1st team squad. Bruna is clearly playing football at the wrong level.

No one is saying that Nemeth is Kenny Dalglish and is going to become the joint best play for LFC- they're saying he shares traits with him. I can say that I'm almost as quick as Torres - but I'm not even good enough to play AFC Liverpool!

You're saying that Nemeth is using the space Simon or Bruna could be occupying? You NUTCASE! Nemeth is injured and yet Simon can't still get in the team as Brouwer has kept him out! And Bruna has played in the majority of reserve games!

Again, just to test your knowledge on the reserves -What position has Bruna played for the resrves this season? And what type of striker is Simon?

[Tatterdemalion]

I don't think the point I was replying to was about specific players, I understoof it ot be a general point about allowing younger players to play the role of e.g. 4th striker in order to gain experience. I agree. I don't see the point in spending the fee or the wages for a e.g. Voronin (as good as he might be in Germany) when we coul use the money better and give experience at the same time.

As gifted/ungifted as players may be when they are young (and I take our point that defenders mature later than forwards), they all improve with experience.

I get the impression that you (UK Footy fan) would not disagree with that, but that is of course your perogative.

[ukfootballfan101]

Oh my god, you are deluded! I know forums are for expressing opinions but there is just nothing factual about what you've said! Bruna has not shown any technical ability and if you have apparently watched the reserves play you would know this. The only thing Bruna has shown of good quality is his free kicks which are very impressive. He's had the ****e kicked out of him every game he has played and this in my opinion is denting his confidence. I will say Pacheco has shown great technical ability although he too has way too much to prove until is considered even for the 1st team squad. Bruna is clearly playing football at the wrong level.

No one is saying that Nemeth is Kenny Dalglish and is going to become the joint best play for LFC- they're saying he shares traits with him. I can say that I'm almost as quick as Torres - but I'm not even good enough to play AFC Liverpool!

You're saying that Nemeth is using the space Simon or Bruna could be occupying? You NUTCASE! Nemeth is injured and yet Simon can't still get in the team as Brouwer has kept him out! And Bruna has played in the majority of reserve games!

Again, just to test your knowledge on the reserves -What position has Bruna played for the resrves this season? And what type of striker is Simon?

Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you miss where I typed "If Nemeth wasn't injured which team would he be playing in?"

I don't know what you know about coaching young talent in sport but have you never heard about a young gifted sportsman being pushed up a few levels to test them and help them develop more? The fact that Bruna is struggling in the reserves is a good thing, it means he needs to raise his game and work hard, whats the point in him taking the piss out of the opponents with the under 18's?

Losing reserve games means nothing, as i've said in other threads if it helps younger players develop i'd be happy if we lost every game.

As I have said in other threads, I haven't watched the reserves at much this season, but as we're talking about Nemeth - who I saw alot of last season that doesn't matter. Do you go to the games?

I don't think the point I was replying to was about specific players, I understoof it ot be a general point about allowing younger players to play the role of e.g. 4th striker in order to gain experience. I agree. I don't see the point in spending the fee or the wages for a e.g. Voronin (as good as he might be in Germany) when we coul use the money better and give experience at the same time.

As gifted/ungifted as players may be when they are young (and I take our point that defenders mature later than forwards), they all improve with experience.

I get the impression that you (UK Footy fan) would not disagree with that, but that is of course your perogative.

I would agree with that, do you think Rafa would have signed Ngog if he had faith in Nemeth?

I agree about the cash to.

[AFII]

But the question is, when are they going to get their chance?

When they are ready and can cope with the PL. If you play them to early then they will almost always end up with injury problems a few years later.

[saj]

Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you miss where I typed "If Nemeth wasn't injured which team would he be playing in?"

I don't know what you know about coaching young talent in sport but have you never heard about a young gifted sportsman being pushed up a few levels to test them and help them develop more? The fact that Bruna is struggling in the reserves is a good thing, it means he needs to raise his game and work hard, whats the point in him taking the piss out of the opponents with the under 18's?

Losing reserve games means nothing, as i've said in other threads if it helps younger players develop i'd be happy if we lost every game.

As I have said in other threads, I haven't watched the reserves at much this season, but as we're talking about Nemeth - who I saw alot of last season that doesn't matter. Do you go to the games?
.

Another terrible post - I watch everygame game that is televised on LFC.TV!

You've said that you've hardly watched the reserves which in English means that you haven't watched them at all. Bruna made a couple of sub appearences last year and has only figured for the reserves this year. So how can you say that Bruna has shown great technical ability when you have never seen him play - he of course has figured this year for the reserves but you have not watched the reserves this year????

You say I don't know anything about coaching? Do you know anything about Sport Psychology? Did you know confidence/mental preparation is as vital as physcial preparation for a game? If he plays at a lower level, performs well and bangs in a few goals then his confidence will build. He can then slowly be eased into a the next level up i.e. the reserves. But playing a young boy, away from his home into a new culture of football and at a level which he clearly isn't suitable is potentially the worst thing for his development. His confidence will only get lower each time he gives the ball away, evertime he takes a tough challenge, eveytime he's subbed, everytime the team loses etc etc. And if you know anything about the reserves, you'll know that he has struggled to adapt to both the country and the style of football from interviews with Ablett.

And if you don't believe in Sport Psychology, then think back to how every year in the 3rd round of the FA Cup a crap team from the lower divisions can knock out a team flying high in the premiership. Is it a case of being thrown at the deep end and raising their game as they struggle? Or is it a case of sport psychology coupled with physical preparation that gives them a slightly greater chance and even out playing their opponents?

You clearly don't know the first thing about coaching if you think chucking young, underdeveloped players into a level that is too great for them

[saj]

I would agree with that, do you think Rafa would have signed Ngog if he had faith in Nemeth?

I agree about the cash to.

You are so wrong again and this is another factless quote. If you had any insight into football you will know that Rafa would never have signed Ngog had he been under a long term contract and if he had been happy at PSG. Why do you think Rafa signed Ngog, a highly rated striker who had excelled at various youth levels for both club and country and had made 19 or so appearences for the PSG last season?

Well the answer is he was going to be out of contract at the end of this season and Rafa was able to get him for just £1.5M. There was no way Rafa would have payed the full value for him. Rafa and PSG knew that he was not going to sign another contract as PSG were playing him out of position and Ngog was unhappy with this, consulted his cousin Boumsong and then decided that he would be better warming the Liverpool subs bench. Rafa knew that PSG couldn't demand a higher fee for him.

[ukfootballfan101]

Another terrible post - I watch everygame game that is televised on LFC.TV!

You've said that you've hardly watched the reserves which in English means that you haven't watched them at all. Bruna made a couple of sub appearences last year and has only figured for the reserves this year. So how can you say that Bruna has shown great technical ability when you have never seen him play - he of course has figured this year for the reserves but you have not watched the reserves this year????

You say I don't know anything about coaching? Do you know anything about Sport Psychology? Did you know confidence/mental preparation is as vital as physcial preparation for a game? If he plays at a lower level, performs well and bangs in a few goals then his confidence will build. He can then slowly be eased into a the next level up i.e. the reserves. But playing a young boy, away from his home into a new culture of football and at a level which he clearly isn't suitable is potentially the worst thing for his development. His confidence will only get lower each time he gives the ball away, evertime he takes a tough challenge, eveytime he's subbed, everytime the team loses etc etc. And if you know anything about the reserves, you'll know that he has struggled to adapt to both the country and the style of football from interviews with Ablett.

And if you don't believe in Sport Psychology, then think back to how every year in the 3rd round of the FA Cup a crap team from the lower divisions can knock out a team flying high in the premiership. Is it a case of being thrown at the deep end and raising their game as they struggle? Or is it a case of sport psychology coupled with physical preparation that gives them a slightly greater chance and even out playing their opponents?

You clearly don't know the first thing about coaching if you think chucking young, underdeveloped players into a level that is too great for them

Are you for real? There are dozens of examples of young sportsmen being pushed up a level to help their development. Tiger Woods was playing against players much older than him when he was young. Lionel Messi made his first team debut for Barcelona at 16. Michael Owen was playing with 10 year olds when he was 7.

Do you really think it will have a big impact on a player if they give the ball away in a meaningless reserve game? It's Abletts job to assess if Bruna is mentally ready to play and if he had a simple conversation with him explaining that he expected it to be tough for him but he should use the games to learn and get better. It's all about man management, all ablett has to do is give him words of encouragement after each game.

You clearly don't know the first thing about man management if you think a manager can't explain the reasons for chucking "young, underdeveloped players into a level that is to great for them".


I prefer to watch the games live, I refuse to spend any money on the club apart from tickets untill Hicks and Gillett are gone.

[ukfootballfan101]

You are so wrong again and this is another factless quote. If you had any insight into football you will know that Rafa would never have signed Ngog had he been under a long term contract and if he had been happy at PSG. Why do you think Rafa signed Ngog, a highly rated striker who had excelled at various youth levels for both club and country and had made 19 or so appearences for the PSG last season?

Well the answer is he was going to be out of contract at the end of this season and Rafa was able to get him for just £1.5M. There was no way Rafa would have payed the full value for him. Rafa and PSG knew that he was not going to sign another contract as PSG were playing him out of position and Ngog was unhappy with this, consulted his cousin Boumsong and then decided that he would be better warming the Liverpool subs bench. Rafa knew that PSG couldn't demand a higher fee for him.

That is a very good point, maybe he wouldn't have paid full price, however we all know that money has been very tight for Rafa this summer. Although I'm not sure if the fee was paid up front, but if it was that extra bit of cash may have enable Rafa to get Barry - as this was around the same amount as the difference in Villa's valuation and our bid.

Now I think there is alot we don't know about what happened with the Barry deal so this may be wide of the mark, but Rafa could have told the board to increase their bid by £1.5m and he would drop his interest in Ngog - if he thought Nemeth could step up. Can anyone remember when Ngog signed during the summer?