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    Houllier re-visited?

    Before I go on can I first remind people that we are top of the league (virtually) and throught to the champions league last 16.

    Now on to my moan.........

    Towards the end of last season we went on a great winning run that brought many compliments, we were good to watch, scoring goals and not conceding. I think most agreed that with a few key additions we could well have a serious crack at the title.

    I think the majority of us added that the key signings we would all prefer was a left back to replace Riise, and due to the unreliable Aurelio. A right back to replace and challenge the inconsistant Arbeloa. And a right winger to offer genuine enterprise and an attacking threat, to replace the cumbersome and out of form Kuyt.

    In fact it reminded me of the time we were runners up under Houllier. We were on the verge of something really special and all felt back then that a few key additions would let us take that final step. Most were initially excited with the players who came in and some of them performed well early on in the season. This early form and momentum from the previous season saw us race to the top of the league and there was reason for optimism.

    But it wasn't long before we soon realised that Cheyrou was not "the new Zidane" and that the rest were frankly nowhere near the class our club demanded. Quite rightly I and many others kept faith in them initially as it is impossible to gauge early on if a player is simply stuggling to adapt or is absoloute rubbish. We know how that batch of signings turned out. Diouf being the only one with a remote touch of class, but lacked the character.

    Anyway a bright start led into the now deaded month of November, and by the time the month was out we were out of the Champions League and out of the title race. We went on to finish 5th.

    Fast Froward to this season. Our prayers are soon answered with the departure of Riise and the arrival of an attacking left back by the name of Andreas Dossena, a real class act who was on the verge of becoming his countrys first choice left back, no mean feat for an Italian. Also through the door was the free transfer of Phillip Degen. Not to everyones liking but most were happy to accept he would provide a challenge to Arbeloa and as prior to his first major injury he was first choice at Dortmond and in the very solid Swiss side he looked a good coup on a free.

    Soon after we had N'Gog and Cavlieri enter the fields of Anfiled Road, nothing major but a replacement for the hapless Itandje couldn't harm and a few supporters wistfully dreamed of an Anelka type signing, still one for the future so no real harm done.

    But where is our right winger we wondered? Well here's where Rafa played the joker in his pack. He had no intention of signing one! Instead, in comes Robbie Keane?!? Whilst most were initially suprised we were signing a striker, and all were suprised at the £20m transfer fee, but most caution soon led to optimism as fans dreamed of the Keane and Torres partnership.

    There was of course still a worry. Where would Keane play? After all we had just swept most before us using a hugely successfull 4231. Rafa must be switching to 442. We were suprised but saw it as a positive.

    Then came another bomb shell. The signing of Albert Riera. Opinion was split due to memories of a fantastic season with Espanyol and a poor one with Man City. What was more strange was that Rafa was signing a player to compete and possibly replace Ryan Babel in the first team, a player who many believed to be on the verge of having a real impact at Anfield.

    Cue a couple of interviews where Rafa states he now sees Babel as a striker and no longer a winger. Fine Rafa, many said, but then why sign Keane?

    Anyway fast forward even more and we are where we are now. Not doing to bad at all thank you very much on the grand scheme of things. In fact we are all delighted with the start. Less so with the performances it must be said.

    Anyhow we are not a million miles from the next transfer window and what are the players people are wanting to sign?

    Yes you guessed it, a left back, a right back and a right winger. Back to square one. And what formation is Rafa starting to rely on again? Again you are spot on when you say 4231. And once again we are bcak to square one.

    We are a long way from a Houllier style collapse, and it is clear the signings we made have either been unlucky or slow to settle. I remain convinced Keane will settle if Rafa gives him a chance with Torres up front. The price alone dictates he will get a stay of execution.

    The other two in Degen and Dossena are hanging by a thread. Either way Rafa has come through the nightmare month of November unscathed and a good run of games whould see us make the January transfer window whilst still in a positive position. But that is when Rafa will have to act. I await the outcome with baited breath...........

    ...........The press do also, who are already getting a slight smell of blood. With this being described as Rafas do or die season, and as yet no new contract on the table they will be quick to strike and write the inevitable Benitez for Madrid headlines. You wouldn't be suprised to see Schuster struggling at Real, who hire and fire managers faster than Usain Bolt will run the 100m. I await the inevitable press rumours.

    Either way we can write what we like, but to win the title we will not be able to carry any first choice players. I expect a strong Rafa to do what he does best. Sell players he regards as failures. The challenge has been set for our under-achievers.

    And I expect Rafa and his reds to be sitting top of the premiership come May. He may have got it wrong in the summer. He will not get it wrong again. Our rivals have allowed us a second chance. They will come to regret this.
    Forwards.......

    #2
    I still don't see what's wrong with Arbeloa at right back.

    Also now that Torres is out injured I'm glad we have Keane.
    Riera has balanced the team far more than Babel ever has.
    Kut has been excellent on the right - we now need competition or a different option (unless Rafa wants to give Babel a go and he wants to try his hand there).

    The left back situation is a worry but it is early in Dossena's LFC career. I think the end of the season is the time to judge both him and Keane.
    "The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water, and breeds reptiles of the mind."
    -- William Blake

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by DannyMan2006 View Post
      Yes you guessed it, a left back, a right back and a right winger. Back to square one. And what formation is Rafa starting to rely on again? Again you are spot on when you say 4231. And once again we are bcak to square one.
      Great post, little to long for my liking personally and a bit of a fence sitter but.

      Torres and Gerrard injuries are the key denominators here.
      You don't come up with any alternatives.

      Who would you like us to sign as a
      RIGHT WINGER
      LEFT BACK (who doesn't go forward)
      RIGHT BACK (who doesn't go forward)

      I think Babel and Keane are the two players people were expecting to be our shining saviours
      but as Yossi said.
      "The team seem to be doing so well when I'm sat on the bench".

      Every player wants to play but
      such is the game nowadays that rotation is a must to keep players fresh and injury free.

      Last night was obvious that Rafa wanted to give Torres a full 90 min.

      Did you here anyone shouting for Robbie Keane like they were for Alonso v Lucas?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by dww View Post
        I still don't see what's wrong with Arbeloa at right back. He's not the best, but I think the competition this year has spurred him on more. He has been better this year than last. It's clear we still need competition for him. Hopefully Darby or Degen will provide this by the seasons end.

        Also now that Torres is out injured I'm glad we have Keane. That may be the case, but if we played a champions league final with everyone fit at present he would not make the starting line up. At £20m this should not be the case. It is clear Rafa still prefers the 4231 when the chips are down, so where does that leave Keane?

        Riera has balanced the team far more than Babel ever has. Yes, but most were happy Babel was starting to come good and wanted the balance to come from the RW.

        Kut has been excellent on the right - we now need competition or a different option . Kuyt is fine for certain types of games. He clearly leaves us one dimensional when we are on the attack and this does not help when we are up against ten man defences. In fairness I and many others have agreed he has majorly improved this year, and yet the point stands that people are still calling for a RW to be brought in, to assist us in taking the next step. You are obviously amongst them.

        (unless Rafa wants to give Babel a go and he wants to try his hand there). I have been wondering why he hasn't tried this all season. It doesn't look to be an option in Rafas mind for some reason.

        The left back situation is a worry but it is early in Dossena's LFC career. I think the end of the season is the time to judge both him and Keane. I would agree, but do we have the ability to carry Dossena until the end of the season? Clearly Aurelio is made of glass which means he will miss a major amount of games. Errors in defence could cost us the title. Keane I am less worried about.
        Forwards.......

        Comment


          #5
          Shanks007.

          My main point in the post is that last year we found a formatin in 4231 that got the results. We were all happy we more or less had the squad to cover to a certain extent every position on the pitch.

          What we needed was to bring in three top players for last seasons weakest positions. Those three positions were RB, LB and RW. The players who were options were debated for many a month on these forums, a quick search would show up many a name, from Quaresma and Rafinha to Lahm and even Warnock! Pandev was a player that interested me, and maybe even a cut price Owen as cover for Torres. We spent around £35m in the summer so clearly we had plenty of options.

          Whether they would have settled is another matter. Football is all about gambling and hoping to get it right.

          ------------------------

          On the whole I was quite happy with the summer signings, but that was on the assumption Rafa was changing to 442. Clearly he is now having second thoughts. Maybe he was waiting for Keane to find his feet. Hopefully he will now come good with Torres out for three weeks.
          Forwards.......

          Comment


            #6
            we cant hold keane's price against him. i think he's the right player and needs a full season before being judged. anything more is just a discussion point and pure speculation on how well he will or wont do.

            too early for dossena and degen. degen going forward looks a real treat actually, just his defending looked poor - in the game where the whole team were sh1t and he was coming back from injury. kuyt is playing well on the right so im not so rushed to get a right winger.

            the major difference between now and 2002 is the position in the league. our rivals haven't let us in or any of that ****e. we're having one of the best starts of any side in the top flight ever. that's why we're top and we can't be that bad to be there. and everyone has played their part. including keane.

            Comment


              #7
              I do kind of understand where you are coming from however to say its Houllier re-visited is quite preposterous, at least we are playing badly and winning, which is the main thing of course.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by barnes10 View Post
                we cant hold keane's price against him. i think he's the right player and needs a full season before being judged. anything more is just a discussion point and pure speculation on how well he will or wont do.

                too early for dossena and degen. degen going forward looks a real treat actually, just his defending looked poor - in the game where the whole team were sh1t and he was coming back from injury. kuyt is playing well on the right so im not so rushed to get a right winger.

                the major difference between now and 2002 is the position in the league. our rivals haven't let us in or any of that ****e. we're having one of the best starts of any side in the top flight ever. that's why we're top and we can't be that bad to be there. and everyone has played their part. including keane.
                I'm convinced myself that Keane will come good if played on a regular basis with Torres. With any luck he will up his game now and play so well that when Torres comes back he must be played.

                On Degen it is obvious that due to his injuries he will have no takers in January. This gives him until the end of the season to sort himself out and get on he pitch and prove his worth. He has just been plain unlucky.

                Kuyt as I keep saying has been far better this year. But he needs a proper RW to give him competition. Get shot of Benayoun and Pennant and maybe bring in the Polish fella to give us different options on the right.

                Originally posted by Ben Tover View Post
                I do kind of understand where you are coming from however to say its Houllier re-visited is quite preposterous, at least we are playing badly and winning, which is the main thing of course.
                I agree, hence I say Rafa will get it right and win us the league. As mentioned by another poster it appears to be a bit of a fence sitter. It's not, as I am positive we have the right man for the job and that I also feel he will get it right.

                What I also say is that he made the wrong summer signings as only one (Riera) would be in his first XI. £35m spent and only one player brought in has improved the first XI as of yet. Poor showing. We all remarked we needed signings to hit the ground running and they haven't. Thankfully other players have raised their game, Alonso, Arbeloa and Kuyt to name three. This has helped with the start.
                Forwards.......

                Comment


                  #9
                  what i didnt say above is that i agree with your sentiments about houllier and where it went from for him. that its about a big investment for a final push after 4 yrs in charge.

                  its a biggie for rafa this season no doubt about that at all. im just glad we're through in the CL and can concentrate on our league run now.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by dww View Post
                    I still don't see what's wrong with Arbeloa at right back.

                    Also now that Torres is out injured I'm glad we have Keane.
                    Riera has balanced the team far more than Babel ever has.
                    Kut has been excellent on the right - we now need competition or a different option (unless Rafa wants to give Babel a go and he wants to try his hand there).

                    The left back situation is a worry but it is early in Dossena's LFC career. I think the end of the season is the time to judge both him and Keane.


                    Obviously it would be nice if Dossena was setting the world alight but he's finding it tough at the moment, doesn't mean there's no chance of him turning it around and he'll get a few games on the trot with Aurelio out now to show what he can do.
                    "My commitment to Liverpool is 100 per cent. I would die for that Liverpool shirt. I think the club loves me and I feel the same, no matter what the situation." - Pepe Reina, Nov '09.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Good post, interesting perspective!

                      I don't agree with all of it, and I don't think we can compare this to the last season of Houllier.

                      I think many supporters where missing what you describe and in accordance with rafa besides the RW pos.

                      I still think it is to early to say we are back at square one, Degen have been unfortunate and Arbeloa has actually stepped up this season.

                      Dossena has in no way impressed and I agree we need to think that one through. He still has time to come good, but so far it is a failure. However we do have a fairly well playing Aurelio and a Insua who can take the place if needed. This position can however still be strenghtened. Dossena type LB is the right buy, considering that is where Rafa seeks the width in attack, and we certainly do not need a def. minded LB.

                      With the right wing, Rafa has clearly shown that he favours Kuyt and does not want a new RW. Personally I am not impressed with Kuyt as a RW because he simply isen't creative and techn good enough. He has many impressive qual. but they are better suited for another position (Am I the only one who thinks he could do well at a DM pos.???) Babel, benny provides the backup Rafa want's.

                      Keane was also a needed buy. With Crouch leaving and Torres not able to be on form or stay injury free we needed another quality proven striker. Keane will show his worth, but has lacked a bit so far. Worth 20 mill??? Perhaps not yet, but if we stay and improve our position from last season then he will be well worth it.

                      A couple of pieces are still missing, but overall we have improved since last season, and therefore are not comparable with Houllier IMO. We have a better squad and greater depth, and this is showing already.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        A couple of pieces are still missing, but overall we have improved since last season, and therefore are not comparable with Houllier IMO. We have a better squad and greater depth, and this is showing already.
                        I'd say Riera is the only real improvement on last season in terms of players. If picking out strongest 11, he is the only one i'd put in it. Skittles was much improved early in the season and Kuyt and Xabi are playing very well. Our position is due to existing players upping their game, not the new buys in the main. I think Rafa success comes from his tactical ability. I think his judgement of players is no better than average.
                        Last edited by Kenneth; 28-11-08, 02:04 PM.
                        Trey Nyoni: countdown to stardom- 2 years 1year 0.5 years

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Some interesting points.


                          I know we all wanted a new right winger but he was never in Rafa's plans.

                          The left we can agree was by and large sorted with Reira.

                          We needed a new left back and we bought one, not sure how good or bad he is going to turn out, but I am willing to give him a chance.

                          Our biggest problem, and Souness touched upon it on Weds is the 2 DM at home against lesser teams. We've got enough about us to go out and attack teams and yet we don't. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it only worked last season because of Torres (being fit and on fire). He isn't fit, he isn't on fire and we look ****e.

                          It's the system that's the problem more than the summer transfer.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            i think the difference between houllier and rafa here is that if rafa isn't there or there abouts this season he'll be sacked because houllier got extra time than he deserved.

                            still think rafa bought really poorly this summer though, spent far too much time wanking over gareth barry to actually try and address the lack of width and creativity we've always craved for in a modern liverpool team.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by rage View Post
                              i think the difference between houllier and rafa here is that if rafa isn't there or there abouts this season he'll be sacked because houllier got extra time than he deserved.

                              still think rafa bought really poorly this summer though, spent far too much time wanking over gareth barry to actually try and address the lack of width and creativity we've always craved for in a modern liverpool team.
                              Depends if he gets a new contract signed or not.

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