Youth Development

[Sarb]

Errr, I don't think so. You need to chill out a little mate. Loop started the thread and has concerns on youth development. I'm sure a lot of other fans do as well

Like I said, when he needs someone for the first team he goes out and buys an already established player and puts them in the team rather than promoting from within.

Is that a difficult concept for you to understand? I'm sure Loops original point was about promoting players from the Youth team and reserves and into the first team. And that's not happened much under Rafa to be fair

[cled the red]

BFG, I don't have a dislike of Rafa. I'm commenting on the topic. But it's easy to slant it and say it's an anti-Rafa agenda.

Besides, you proved my point. You listed all the players he's bought in and turned into talents. What's going to happen when the money runs out and some players leave/retire. Then we're in trouble without a doubt

If that will ever be the case, we won't be the only ones in trouble!

[BFG]

Errr, I don't think so. You need to chill out a little mate. Loop started the thread and has concerns on youth development. I'm sure a lot of other fans do as well

Like I said, when he needs someone for the first team he goes out and buys an already established player and puts them in the team rather than promoting from within.

Is that a difficult concept for you to understand? I'm sure Loops original point was about promoting players from the Youth team and reserves and into the first team. And that's not happened much under Rafa to be fair

The thread is about youth development Sarb, something that I've pointed out Rafa does well, albeit at the higher cost end thus far. Loopy may have concerns about this and fair enough but he isn't on every thread chipping away at every aspect of Rafa's reign like a demented woodpecker.

I've already pointed out six youth team players that have played in the Prem and CL this year and you still haven't offered any evidence as to why this is 'piss poor' compared to other big clubs. (Who are all below us in the league btw)

If you look at our match day squads this year there has been one or two youth players in most of them I think. Have a look for yourself.

What more do you want? Drop our world class talent and risk these players in big games? You'd have a ****ing coronary if he did that and we lost points.

[Woobus]

Rafa seems to like the players to be over 20 before he starts to play them, cant blame him when we have seen the damage Owen and Fowler got from playing to young. Most of the Arsenal kids will probably be injury wrecked by there late 20's.
Insua, Plessis and El Zhar have already played in the league this season and think Nemeth would have got games if it hadnt of been from his injuries. Not to many other premiership sides have gave that amount of young players a chance this year.
Talk also of Hamill coming back from loan and going into the first team so I wouldnt say it is that bad.

[dww]

I think that people are taking a very short term view here. To my mind we will only be able to tell in the next maybe four or five years how the youth development changes are/have worked.

Part of the problem seems to me a mismatch between peoples feeling that we should have young players breaking through at the age of 16-19 where Rafa seems to feel that players will be ready to play between 18 and 21.

People seem to totally discount the fact that El Zhar has played a decent number of games and looked like a useful squad member and Insua seems to genuinely improved in the reserves going by his first team appearance this term.

It took Wenger 10 years of total control to get to the point he is at now where he has started bringing through players from the youth set up right through to the first team. Most of the players he has had up until now have had experience in a first team elsewhere or like Toure and Fabregas came through development programs up to the age of 15 or older elsewhere.

We also already have a pretty young squad so talk of a few players retiring derailing us entirely seems a bit dramatic.

[cled the red]

[QUOTE]

The thread is about youth development Sarb, something that I've pointed out Rafa does well, albeit at the higher cost end thus far. Loopy may have concerns about this and fair enough but he isn't on every thread chipping away at every aspect of Rafa's reign like a demented woodpecker.

I've already pointed out six youth team players that have played in the Prem and CL this year and you still haven't offered any evidence as to why this is 'piss poor' compared to other big clubs. (Who are all below us in the league btw)

If you look at our match day squads this year there has been one or two youth players in all of them I think. Have a look for yourself.

What more do you want? Drop our world class talent and risk these players in big games? You'd have a ****ing coronary if he did that and we lost points.[/QUOTE]

I actually think he would take great delight in it myself - It spoils his weekend when Liverpool win!!

[BFG]

I think that people are taking a very short term view here. To my mind we will only be able to tell in the next maybe four or five years how the youth development changes are/have worked.

Part of the problem seems to me a mismatch between peoples feeling that we should have young players breaking through at the age of 16-19 where Rafa seems to feel that players will be ready to play between 18 and 21.

People seem to totally discount the fact that El Zhar has played a decent number of games and looked like a useful squad member and Insua seems to genuinely improved in the reserves going by his first team appearance this term.

It took Wenger 10 years of total control to get to the point he is at now where he has started bringing through players from the youth set up right through to the first team. Most of the players he has had up until now have had experience in a first team elsewhere or like Toure and Fabregas came through development programs up to the age of 15 or older elsewhere.

We also already have a pretty young squad so talk of a few players retiring derailing us entirely seems a bit dramatic.

Great post.

[Sarb]

4 and half years into his reign, how many players have made it into the first team from the reserves and youth team as regulars?

BFG, one game here or there for the likes of Plessis, Spearing, etc doesn't count as youth development. Buying in Agger, Skrtel, Reina and increasing their value isn't youth development when they're already established players.

You're the one whose turned this into a pro/anti Rafa debate, not me.

RAther than give his youth team players/reserve team players a chance, he'd rather go out and buy N'gog, Voronin, Degen etc.

Degen got a £2m signing on fee apparently. You're telling me Darby couldn't have done just as good a job as him?

Flawed policies whether you like it or not

[bobbyfallon]

Great post.

it was

[BFG]

4 and half years into his reign, how many players have made it into the first team from the reserves and youth team as regulars?

BFG, one game here or there for the likes of Plessis, Spearing, etc doesn't count as youth development. Buying in Agger, Skrtel, Reina and increasing their value isn't youth development when they're already established players.

You're the one whose turned this into a pro/anti Rafa debate, not me.

RAther than give his youth team players/reserve team players a chance, he'd rather go out and buy N'gog, Voronin, Degen etc.

Degen got a £2m signing on fee apparently. You're telling me Darby couldn't have done just as good a job as him?

Flawed policies whether you like it or not

Giving one example of a debatable mistake isn't a complete view on a managers good and bad points.

Buying a young player at £20mil and him being worth £40mil in one season is flawed is it? There's several more examples other than Torres of this as we've already discussed. That's brilliant youth development.

Of course Rafa has made mistakes and will continue to do so, he's only a human being. We have a squad worth a hell of a lot more than we paid for it full of class young players. We have a reserve team full of gifted young players that if it were stripped down and sold would be worth more than we paid for it and six of these young lads are getting game time at the highest level. We're also sitting pretty at the top of the pile.

Carlsberg don't make managers..........

[Harv]

How many clubs challenging for the title blood lots of youth in the Premier League, Liga or Serie A?

[Tee]

I think that people are taking a very short term view here. To my mind we will only be able to tell in the next maybe four or five years how the youth development changes are/have worked.

Part of the problem seems to me a mismatch between peoples feeling that we should have young players breaking through at the age of 16-19 where Rafa seems to feel that players will be ready to play between 18 and 21.

People seem to totally discount the fact that El Zhar has played a decent number of games and looked like a useful squad member and Insua seems to genuinely improved in the reserves going by his first team appearance this term.

It took Wenger 10 years of total control to get to the point he is at now where he has started bringing through players from the youth set up right through to the first team. Most of the players he has had up until now have had experience in a first team elsewhere or like Toure and Fabregas came through development programs up to the age of 15 or older elsewhere.

We also already have a pretty young squad so talk of a few players retiring derailing us entirely seems a bit dramatic.

Very valid point - it does take time and maybe we should be patient, but to me it seems there are some genuinely talented players there who could go on and become even better with first team experience.

I would absolutely loved to have seen Nemeth come on for the last 15 or 20 minutes v Hull or Fulham. It is these types of games where players can make an impression and really force their way into first team squads IMO.

I totally agree with Sarb about wasting resources on 4th choice players in certain positions when we should always look to promote from within at that level.

I fear that other young players will look at what is happening with us and not fancy joining.

[Sarb]

BFG, this isn't an anti-Rafa or pro-Rafa debate. You're turning it into one. We can continue along these lines if you want but I'm not calling out Rafa on this one. I've stated that our youth development is poor because imo it is.

Now that in part is Rafa's fault, but it is also the fault of people running the academies/reserve teams as well.

You're just going off on one for absolutely no reason. I admire you sticking up for Rafa mate, I really do. But if you look at Loop's original post it talks about our younger players getting enough chances to break through, not about buying in young talent and selling them on at profit.

The younger players at the club don't get enough chances to breakthrough. That's beyond a shadow of a doubt because like you said Rafa buys a lot of young#ish players and incrases their value

To be honest, I think you've missed the point

[dww]

4 and half years into his reign, how many players have made it into the first team from the reserves and youth team as regulars?

BFG, one game here or there for the likes of Plessis, Spearing, etc doesn't count as youth development. Buying in Agger, Skrtel, Reina and increasing their value isn't youth development when they're already established players.

Does it count when Wenger does it for the likes of Eboue, Flamini or Adebayor? I think there are two dimensions to youth development to be fair and they are worth separating: the production of top class young prospects and then the development into top class players.

Wenger has shown he is exceptional at the latter and it appears that he is now generating a lot of young prospects. However none of them have made it yet. Given that lag I think that both Parry, Rafa and others in the youth development program deserve time before their work in this area is judged.

RAther than give his youth team players/reserve team players a chance, he'd rather go out and buy N'gog, Voronin, Degen etc.

Degen got a £2m signing on fee apparently. You're telling me Darby couldn't have done just as good a job as him?

Flawed policies whether you like it or not

It seems reasonable that Rafa feels that the players in the reserves are not at the right point in their development to have any thing other than a few games. Again I think we need to wait to see how the players in question develop in the next few years.

It seems apparent that Darby could do as good a job of Degen when he was injured but have no idea of what the possible benefits of a fit Degen are. It is quite possible he would have added a great deal - as it is the gamble certainly hasn't paid of.

I think barring us getting a decent fee for Voronin in the future then the signings of Degen and Voronin will have been a bad choice but I'm not sure that at this stage they can be used as a sign of blocked youth development.

[Harv]

The Italian way is the best IMO. They loan young clearly talented players out to clubs they have an agreement with. The player nearly always comes back much the better for it. This is the way it has to be done if you are challenging for the title in a tough league were every result counts.