Rafa is over cautious

[Roboklopp]

Why should Rafa have to explain every decision? Sorry but that is just ludicrous IMO, even though I disagree with his selection he is the Manager and he does know the overall squad situation better than any of us on here.

There is no way he deliberately puts out a weak team, and as Torres is only just back from a dangerous injury the only real selection choice he had to make was to play Kuyt or Keane up front. And that is open to debate but not that drastic a choice IMO.

aye

[jono]

Should he have also come out and explained after the Newcastle game, when he picked basically the same team and we beat them 5-1?

Why not? He's taking a lot of heat at the moment because of his selections. If there's a logical reason why Kuyt started up front on his own, that Torres got a run late and Keane never got a look in then tell us - It may calm a lot of people down.

[Roboklopp]

altho, wouldve played both up top- keane behind kuyt & stevie masher in cm

[tsb]

Should he have also come out and explained after the Newcastle game, when he picked basically the same team and we beat them 5-1?

Horses for courses. You know Newcastle will play an open game and attack at home. Stoke set out their stall to achieve a 0-0 or 1-0 at best.

[magicalbarnes]

Too many negative people on here.

Fair enough we would have been in a better position if we had beat Stoke, Fulham & West Ham. But the bottom line is we are in our best position to win the league for ages.

We are now 2nd favourites for the league, when is the last time we could say that? 2002?

[Pacman]

All this ****e makes me laugh.

One poor showing which ended in a draw not even a defeat and the doom and gloom mongers are out in force.

I didn't read the letter I don't need to and I don't care I'm half expecting rage to rear his ugly head.

[dww]

I'm of the opinion that Rafa has come to the conclusion that Gerrard, Keane and Torres all take too many similar positions when played together and that this will always limit the level of interaction between them and the effectiveness of the United tactic of bunging on all your attacking players at once. I agree that he is a naturally somewhat cautious coach but I think that the accusation is given too much weight. I think he has struggled to identify the right combination of players that will be able to really crack teams like Stoke. Part of this problem lays with the inconsistency of a number of our wide players - namely Babel and Benayoun. Rafa will always prefer IMO to use width and change the way we attack rather than just throw on forwards. In order to make that work IMO we either need a target man or for improvements in our wide player. They have all shown now that they can do what we need but they do it too rarely.

[Roboklopp]

All this ****e makes me laugh.

One poor showing which ended in a draw not even a defeat and the doom and gloom mongers are out in force.

I didn't read the letter I don't need to and I don't care I'm half expecting rage to rear his ugly head.

Not entirely fair mate- I've been very positive for the most part this season & am a big Rafa fan. I know there a some overreactionary wronguns here but there is a rather worrying trend mate, not just one result/performance/lineup.

[Roboklopp]

I'm of the opinion that Rafa has come to the conclusion that Gerrard, Keane and Torres all take too many similar positions when played together and that this will always limit the level of interaction between them and the effectiveness of the United tactic of bunging on all your attacking players at once. I agree that he is a naturally somewhat cautious coach but I think that the accusation is given too much weight. I think he has struggled to identify the right combination of players that will be able to really crack teams like Stoke. Part of this problem lays with the inconsistency of a number of our wide players - namely Babel and Benayoun. Rafa will always prefer IMO to use width and change the way we attack rather than just throw on forwards. In order to make that work IMO we either need a target man or for improvements in our wide player. They have all shown now that they can do what we need but they do it too rarely.

I agree here, but there's 2 points that should be made:

1. This was apparent to a lot of us before we bought Keane. I'm sure Rafa would've been aware of the issues.
2. Due to Torres' injuries & the fact Keane hardly ever gets a game, the overlap between even 2 of them, let alone all 3, has been very limited.

[Tee]

I was gutted because I wanted us to put on a great show for Diego Maradona.

[wiw]

Don't think it's Rafa's fault at all. Even with his 'over-cautiousness' we struggled to control the game after a decent first 20/30 minutes. We took the game to them but it was difficult to break them down as they had everyone behind the ball in their own half (they were the home team ffs).

Our problems were mostly our own fault anyway - our ball retention was ****e and our wingers had a 'mare, which is the last thing you want when you're playing a compact team. You need to get around and behind them and we just couldn't when we gave the ball away constantly..instead of building up pressure and territory we were constantly getting forced back after giving it away.

Besides, the last thing you want to do is go behind against Stoke

[Imy]

We missed Alonso on Saturday.

[Roboklopp]

We missed Alonso on Saturday.

Very much so, aye. Rafa must see that now.

[dww]

I agree here, but there's 2 points that should be made:

1. This was apparent to a lot of us before we bought Keane. I'm sure Rafa would've been aware of the issues.
2. Due to Torres' injuries & the fact Keane hardly ever gets a game, the overlap between even 2 of them, let alone all 3, has been very limited.

I was referring specifically to the Stoke game really which seems to be the one largely questioned in this thread.

In general I think Rafa saw a flexible player in Keane at Spurs who looked like he could adapt his game to a number of partners with different styles - which is almost exactly the characteristics I think we needed considering the fact that we really only had one recognised goal scoring forward in the squad and the fat that we may get injuries. Keane wouldn't have been my first choice but I think there was logic in bringing him in.

I suspect that Keane has so far disappointed Rafa in someway as otherwise in a number of games he would have started ahead of Kuyt. I don't think that Rafa has totally lost faith in him and previously he has been willing to give players a season to see if they adapt to his methods. I get the impression from the games when Keane has come back into the side that he does have some of the right mental toughness to do that. It remains to be seen though (fairly obviously).

[Roboklopp]

Dww, what you say about Rafas' view of Keane makes sense in some ways- his flexibility, having disappointed Rafa somehow, but we cannot afford to spend £20m on a utility striker & it's not really a choice of Kuyt or Keane- there's room for both on the field, especially if Kuyt is a RW.

Sometimes, I think Rafa is a bit too techinical & fixated on what particular formation suits. I expect he thinks Keane doesnt hold up the ball enough to play up top for 4-5-1, whereas Kuyt is a little better at that & is more prone to be where the other palyers expect him to be, so the system hangs better. I'd counter that by saying that we'd have been better served playing or better players from the start. You dont need 451 against Stoke FFS.

However, even if you agree that we should have started 451, it was painfully obvious after 45 mins that that system wasnt working & the most obvious change (a patently unfit Torres aside, was the introduction of Keane).

I's also argue that Keane isnt going to learn to play with the others/adapt his game if he gets no game time. He was starting to find some form before he was dropped at Newcastle/Stoke. Preston wasnt great, but Rafa has shown with plenty of others that 1 poor game doesnt merit being dropped for in his eyes.