It's not the draw yesterday...

[Elvoz]

villa are 1 point behind and look better than us, also the **** teams play against us to get a draw so park up infront of goal, against villa they dont do that so villa beat the **** teams we draw against

how much you want on it then ? seriously PM me i will bet anything you want on it

[mouphy]

The truth is the players aren't good enough.
Yes Rafa has done some strange things but we all know Keane cannot play the lone striker role, everyone on here has been slating him so if Torres was struggling and he didn't want to risk another hamstring injury then putting babel up front is something loads of posters on here have been crying out for.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the facts say that in the last 4 or 5 games or so we have had approx 60% of the possession in each game and failed to win them. That is the players not the manager, everyone was wanking over Alonso but he was **** in the recent games, Babel has started the last few and done absolutely nothing, Keane done nothing virtually all season, I know someone will point out that Rafa bought them but did he?? the farce with Keane shows that maybe he didn't.
If you have the amount of possession we do against Stoke, Fulham, Everton, Wigan etc.. etc.. we should win.
442, 4231 means **** all, we played 442 against Everton and were rubbish so don't spout ****e about holding midfielders.
A team containing Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Babel, Riera, Alonso, Mascher, Keane whoever should be able to win games with the amount of time we spend in possession.
Rafa sends us out to draw and lose deliberately - do me a ****ing favour why don't we start looking at some of our 'favourite' players contributions not just at the manager.
They are letting themselves down and letting us down.

Finally somebody else who sees that the players have to take some of the responsibility! How much possession and how many chances do they need to finish off games? Rafa has taken some abuse on here the past while including personal insults and now allegations that hes trying to loose or draw games on purpose, some of you need to wise up! He sends 11 players out on to the pitch to do a job and lets face it, there not doing it!

[Woobus]

Rafa has taken some abuse on here the past while including personal insults and now allegations that hes trying to loose or draw games on purpose, some of you need to wise up!

Have read some idiotic things on this forum but Rafa trying to lose and draw matches has got to be the best.
I can understand why some people dont like how Rafa does stuff but to come out with **** like this just isnt on.

[Icon]

Rafa is not trying to lose - he is not trying hard enough to win!

[felly]

Rafa is not trying to lose - he is not trying hard enough to win!

Id agree with that. He wont take the necessary risks to try turn that 1 point into 3. Fergiescum takes the risks, has all his strikers on the pitch and 90% of the time gets the 1-0 they were chasing.

[vonk]

It's not the players. He has a huge squad of good players. A decent manager will get the best out of his players every week. FFS golum at the blue****e doesnt have a striker and has spent about 10p in the last 5 years and Everton were all over arsenal last night. No matter what team ferguson puts out they win. Seriously. If Rafa cant get the best out of this squad, he has to go. The arguments that

1) he needs time
2) he hasnt had the money

are done. They don't wash any more. He's had plenty of both and we are playing ****e football and throwing away games. He's had five years and we still have ****e fullbacks and wingers. We have exactly three goalscoring threats in Stevie, Nando and Sami. If Sami is not playing we have no idea what to do with a corner or set piece. Whens the last time we saw Riera or Kuyt or Babel get to the line and swing in a dangerous cross? How can we justify the fact that players like Lucas, Benyoun and Mascherano are giving away silly free kicks in the last 10 minutes against teams who's only chance of scoring is from a set piece? Who coaches these players? Who sets them up and motivates them? No, not having it. He's had players and time. The remainder of this season has come down to the ability of one man. Rafa.

[nevelator]

Rafa is not trying to lose - he is not trying hard enough to win!

I have to agree with this. Rafa's main concern is not to lose. He worries a little too much about the opposition rather than going for the win. That is a sound philosphy in one off games and knockout competition. You don't win a league by trying not to lose it - you have to go and win it.

[el matador]

from this is anfield...

Some might say the digging began a while ago, some may insist the shovels are out too early, but most now agree Rafa Benitez has got the shovels out himself and began digging his own grave as manager of Liverpool FC.

Last night’s draw at Wigan was our ninth of the season. Yes, ninth draw in 23 league games. The last three seasons the league winners have drawn just 6, 5 and 4 times.

All three of them seasons the league winners lost five times. The reason being they risked going for a win rather than going away with a draw. We’ve lost just once this season, we might even end the season with just one defeat, yet winning the league seems highly unlikely now. Given that United are now effectively six points clear due to their game-in-hand and their significantly better goal difference, plus the fact they are in-form and we’re showing form of a mid-table team - 2 wins in the last 7 games.

What somebody needs to explain to Benitez is some simple maths. Let’s just say, of the 9 drawn games, we won 5 of them and lost the other 4 - we’d be 6 points better off. Even the other way around and we’d lost more than we’d won and we’d still be 3 points better off.

The frustrating thing is, early in the season, when we were needing a goal to win it, Benitez was happy to take off a full-back and throw on an attacker or winger and get the job done - against Middlesbrough and Wigan. Since then his philosophy has changed so much that he takes off a forward and brings on a midfielder. Somehow, it seems Benitez thinks matches can be won without strikers on the pitch? It’s here that you can argue why Benitez is more suited to the European game and getting a draw is a good result if you sneak a win in the second leg etc.

What has really irritated me lately is his failure to learn from his mistakes, or to apply any logic to his decisions. Let me refer to the combination of Lucas and Mascherano in midfield; it failed miserably at home to Fulham, so what does he do against a similar side like Stoke? Play the two of them together again. Both drawn. Few weeks later at Wigan, similar match, same again. Same result - two more points dropped. It’s all well and good ‘resting’ Alonso for the Chelsea match but even if we win on Sunday, we’ve already dropped two points last night. You’d have thought Rafa with his incredible rotation policy could have factored Alonso’s tiredness and given him a rest against Preston rather than in an important league fixture we desperately needed to win to give a clear message that we can keep up with United.

A lot of players have been getting some stick lately but Benitez has to be accountable. His use, or mis-use, of Keane applies no logic and quite frankly stinks. Rested against Everton on Sunday, so he can play a cameo seven minutes last night? Pointless. Why not bring him on for Torres? No, we don’t need forwards on the pitch, we’ll hand the initiative to he opposition just as we did last Monday and ended up with another two points dropped.

I read a post on The Liverpool Way last night which summed up how I feel about Benitez - having always been a massive fan of him (and I still hope he somehow turns it around), here’s part of the post:

“My faith is gone because of that substitution. There was no logical, tactical reason for it what so ever. Rafa was sending out a message. Taking off the best player he’s got for a man he’s got no belief in. Rafa’s always been stubborn, but that was a huge “**** you” to the fans and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was some sort of stupid gesture about the whole Keane fiasco, like him saying “there you go, have your precious Keane on the pitch, i’ll take off Gerrard”. Whatever his reason, he’s lost one fan at least tonight that always, always believed in and backed him regardless of whether i agreed with him.

There’s a lot of fans who will think it’s an over-reaction, but Benitez has handed United the title on a plate. The opportunity to make it 18 each. Those who argue it was he who got us in the position to be challenging are correct, but it is also he who is now undoing all the early season work with illogical decisions and his negative tactics. We might end up going the whole season with one league defeat, yet be fighting for third or fourth on the last day. It doesn’t take a genius to work out where we’ve blown it.

The worst thing is, we all anticipated a crazy decision or two last night, hoping Rafa wouldn’t throw one of his crazy team selections, while it wasn’t that crazy, it was hardly inspiring for the average fan - and im sure the players felt the same way. Imagine being a Wigan player and seeing Torres, and later Gerrard, being taken off. Imagine being a Liverpool player and seeing Torres being replaced by Riera with twenty minutes to go. Inspirational stuff.

There’s some stats flying around comparing this season to last season (substituting relegated teams for promoted teams) which show this season we are four points less off, 11 goals worse on goal difference, scored eight less and conceeded 3 more. Hardly makes good reading or signs of progress does it.

Sunday is a massive day for Liverpool and Rafa Benitez; anything but a win will realistically end our title ambitions, and give Benitez some tough questions when he meets his new best friend Tom Hicks.

http://www.thisisanfield.com/columnists/2009/01/the-night-benitez-dug-his-own-grave/

[el matador]

from the timesonline...

Has Rafael Benitez cost Liverpool the title?

Fact: ever since Rafael Benitez waved his A4 at the press corps and ranted about Sir Alex Ferguson, Liverpool have not won a game.

Fact: at the time of his outburst, Liverpool were top of the Premier League.

Fact: now they are third, two points behind Manchester United, having played one game more.

Perhaps Benitez is trying to make a point to Liverpool's owners. Perhaps he is trying to make a point to Robbie Keane. Perhaps he is trying to make a point to Steven Gerrard. Perhaps the point he is trying to make is: I'm the boss.

Evidently, the only point he seems capable of making is just that: one point. Not three. And that is what is killing Liverpool's best title challenge for 19 years. Seven draws from their past ten league matches has left the side floundering.

Tony Cascarino believes Benitez is unconcerned about this - he is only interested in finishing with more points than last year. Whether this is true or not, Benitez's recent decisions have been left open to scrutiny.

Last night at Wigan was a perfect example. Benitez left Keane on the bench until the 84th minute and when he did bring him on, it was to replace Gerrard. He also took off Fernando Torres and Yossi Benayoun, who scored Liverpool's goal.

His press conference after the match also appeared to show how badly he is coping with the strain. When asked if he was feeling the heat of the championship race, he replied cryptically: "No I am OK. What you can’t control, you can’t change and maybe you have to understand it has to be like this for years. I don’t have any psychological battles with him [Ferguson]. He has been here for 22 years and you can see what it means. You can see what it means to stay here for 22 years. I will not say anything else."

But is Liverpool's demise really down to Benitez or is it his players' fault?

Oliver Kay described their display at the JJB Stadium as either a loss of nerve, a loss of the plot or simply a lack of the class required to win championships. "As anxiety grew, Lucas Leiva inexplicably brought down Jason Koumas for a penalty from which Mido crowned his debut for the home team with a goal that will have been greeted with even greater joy by [Manchester] United’s supporters," Kay wrote. "Mascherano was in headless chicken mode, while Lucas was no stand-in for Xabi Alonso, who was rested."

So who is to blame? Has Benitez cost Liverpool the title? You decide.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2009/01/has-rafael-beni.html

[Craig_H]

from this is anfield...

Some might say the digging began a while ago, some may insist the shovels are out too early, but most now agree Rafa Benitez has got the shovels out himself and began digging his own grave as manager of Liverpool FC.

Last night’s draw at Wigan was our ninth of the season. Yes, ninth draw in 23 league games. The last three seasons the league winners have drawn just 6, 5 and 4 times.

All three of them seasons the league winners lost five times. The reason being they risked going for a win rather than going away with a draw. We’ve lost just once this season, we might even end the season with just one defeat, yet winning the league seems highly unlikely now. Given that United are now effectively six points clear due to their game-in-hand and their significantly better goal difference, plus the fact they are in-form and we’re showing form of a mid-table team - 2 wins in the last 7 games.

What somebody needs to explain to Benitez is some simple maths. Let’s just say, of the 9 drawn games, we won 5 of them and lost the other 4 - we’d be 6 points better off. Even the other way around and we’d lost more than we’d won and we’d still be 3 points better off.

The frustrating thing is, early in the season, when we were needing a goal to win it, Benitez was happy to take off a full-back and throw on an attacker or winger and get the job done - against Middlesbrough and Wigan. Since then his philosophy has changed so much that he takes off a forward and brings on a midfielder. Somehow, it seems Benitez thinks matches can be won without strikers on the pitch? It’s here that you can argue why Benitez is more suited to the European game and getting a draw is a good result if you sneak a win in the second leg etc.

What has really irritated me lately is his failure to learn from his mistakes, or to apply any logic to his decisions. Let me refer to the combination of Lucas and Mascherano in midfield; it failed miserably at home to Fulham, so what does he do against a similar side like Stoke? Play the two of them together again. Both drawn. Few weeks later at Wigan, similar match, same again. Same result - two more points dropped. It’s all well and good ‘resting’ Alonso for the Chelsea match but even if we win on Sunday, we’ve already dropped two points last night. You’d have thought Rafa with his incredible rotation policy could have factored Alonso’s tiredness and given him a rest against Preston rather than in an important league fixture we desperately needed to win to give a clear message that we can keep up with United.

A lot of players have been getting some stick lately but Benitez has to be accountable. His use, or mis-use, of Keane applies no logic and quite frankly stinks. Rested against Everton on Sunday, so he can play a cameo seven minutes last night? Pointless. Why not bring him on for Torres? No, we don’t need forwards on the pitch, we’ll hand the initiative to he opposition just as we did last Monday and ended up with another two points dropped.

I read a post on The Liverpool Way last night which summed up how I feel about Benitez - having always been a massive fan of him (and I still hope he somehow turns it around), here’s part of the post:

“My faith is gone because of that substitution. There was no logical, tactical reason for it what so ever. Rafa was sending out a message. Taking off the best player he’s got for a man he’s got no belief in. Rafa’s always been stubborn, but that was a huge “**** you” to the fans and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was some sort of stupid gesture about the whole Keane fiasco, like him saying “there you go, have your precious Keane on the pitch, i’ll take off Gerrard”. Whatever his reason, he’s lost one fan at least tonight that always, always believed in and backed him regardless of whether i agreed with him.

There’s a lot of fans who will think it’s an over-reaction, but Benitez has handed United the title on a plate. The opportunity to make it 18 each. Those who argue it was he who got us in the position to be challenging are correct, but it is also he who is now undoing all the early season work with illogical decisions and his negative tactics. We might end up going the whole season with one league defeat, yet be fighting for third or fourth on the last day. It doesn’t take a genius to work out where we’ve blown it.

The worst thing is, we all anticipated a crazy decision or two last night, hoping Rafa wouldn’t throw one of his crazy team selections, while it wasn’t that crazy, it was hardly inspiring for the average fan - and im sure the players felt the same way. Imagine being a Wigan player and seeing Torres, and later Gerrard, being taken off. Imagine being a Liverpool player and seeing Torres being replaced by Riera with twenty minutes to go. Inspirational stuff.

There’s some stats flying around comparing this season to last season (substituting relegated teams for promoted teams) which show this season we are four points less off, 11 goals worse on goal difference, scored eight less and conceeded 3 more. Hardly makes good reading or signs of progress does it.

Sunday is a massive day for Liverpool and Rafa Benitez; anything but a win will realistically end our title ambitions, and give Benitez some tough questions when he meets his new best friend Tom Hicks.

http://www.thisisanfield.com/columni...his-own-grave/

Rarely does a piece of such length get it spot on with every point it makes. But this one does.

[Baldemort]

Do you not think though that the starting line up was good enough to beat Wigan? If so then a large portion of the blame has to go to the players for not performing.
Out of his subsitutions well I only listened on the radio, but the commentator, and Gary Speed were saying all night that Torres didn't look right - off the pace, mentally not there etc so taking him off wasn't really a bad decision. Perhaps Keane should have come on in his place - but then we know he can't play up front on his own so moving Babel there seemed fairly logical. Benayoun for Kuyt isn't a massive call either in my opinion. The only one where I think you can genuinely criticise Rafa is the Gerrard one.

I think generally both Rafa and the players are underperforming at the moment, and we need to get out of this slump very very soon to keep in the hunt.

If Torres was tired, which is what 5live were saying, then why waste him against Everton in the cup previously? We want the league Rafa, not the FACup. PLaying Lucas over Xabi was inexcusable. I don't give a **** what ridiculously overcontemplated reasons Rafa comes up with for that one, you don't bench probably our best CM this season and replace him with our worst. The gulf in quality between the two is a ****ing chasm. Why us Keane not playing? What a waste of £20 mill. The Gerrard one was a joke. How often has Babel played up front alone? At least Kuyt has some experience in that role. I'd much have preferred Keane there. Rafa has also pissed about with different formations, switching to 442 now and then. It's patently clear that there is little understanding in the opposition's half from our players, and it will only come with a consistent formation and by playing our strongest squad as often as possible.

From what 5live were saying, Rafa gave instructions to Nando, who then dropped his head, shook his head and walked off. I'm not surprised.

Oh, and if the players are underperforming and need motivating, then Rafa should sort that one out too. His role is not only to pick the squad and decide on tactics, but also to get the best out of his players. Whether that means putting an arm around them or bollocking them is not important is down to him. It's his job and he should sort it.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Rarely does a piece of such length get it spot on with every point it makes. But this one does.

No it doesn't. What special significance does the fact that we've struggled against the promoted teams have?

We're also 5 points better off against United, Chelsea & Arsenal than last season, have 8 points more than last year after 23 games and are still in touch with the top.

FFS

[Joe King]

This has been designed I have no doubt by Benitez - he will possibly feel by damaging our chances at this moment would in the long term, if he thinks he has the backing - which he shouldn't, he would be able to gain more transfer control, more than any other manager in the Premiership. Personally, the ultimatum should be: deliver the title or else the door is where you are going. Under Benitez he inherited a top four side and spent £160m and currently Liverpool have maintained the top four status. Moyes on the other hand inherited relegation fodder and has spent half the budget and is challenging for top four honours. It says a lot about Benitez's transfers; more duds than successes. Why would you entrust a manager with one of the most suspect transfer histories to deal with the whole operation? Blind man in an alley and all that.

In regards to Benitez's style of play, lets call a spade a spade, its Houllier-esque isn't it? I'm talking about 2002 onwards Houllier-esque football. What Benitez likes to do is control games, pretty much what Houllier wanted to establish in what was a pretty mediocre side. Having felt the need to be cheered up with some really sub-standard results and wanting to see United lose, I felt I should watch some Season Review DVD's especially of those from the Houllier days and one thing which caught my eye especially in our best Premiership campaign (2001-02) was how care-free our football was and how we reaped the rewards besides the Leverkusen game. Care-free in the sense we would go on a quest to score goals and pile the pressure on despite being three or four up. Phil Thompson also felt the need to play all Heskey, Owen and Anelka in the same side, could you imagine seeing three strikers in the same side under Benitez to get a WIN? Unless you count Dirk 'Deadly as Lisa Riley's fart' Kuyt, we have two strikers in our 'best side' although a side with Dirk Kuyt is surely anything but a title challenging side with the lack of skill and wit the player possesses. Its Dirk Kuyt who embodies Rafael Benitez on the pitch, a talentless, mindless, slow, busybody who possesses more luck than talent.

What gets on a lot of fans backs with Benitez is his willingness to not learn from past mistakes. The persistence with Lucas and Mascherano in midfield, forcing games on Skrtel who looks very poor since returning, the rigidity in tactics, lack of plan B. I remember one game from this season which raised a lot of expectation amongst Liverpool fans; the game against Manchester United. Sir Alex Ferguson felt it was right to start Rooney and Anderson on both wing positions with Scholes and Carrick commanding the midfield which on paper seemed fine with the debuting Berbatov and the hard working Tevez leading the line. Now, say what you want about the game, I personally felt Ferguson got it absolutely wrong, his line up lacked everything a title chasing side needed yet since then has gone against playing Rooney on a wing position and his side have gone on to succeed us in the league positions, obviously recently Tevez has played. Surely this tells us that Ferguson is willing to accept he has made mistakes and willing to change his team in order to eradicate them so they can WIN games? Had that been Benitez, I would have had no doubt, he would have continued to play that system time and time again to prove his point which seems pointless seen as they would drop more points.

Whats needed is a bit more attacking play because no doubt this is a very talented and multi skilled squad but to quote Andy Gray 'there's only one man who can wreck Liverpool's title challenge and thats the manager'.

[MrMichael]

You can say whatever you want but you will NEVER convince me that Rafa is deliberately sabotaging things. It's just plain ridiculous. He's always been accused of making strange decisions so you can't suddenly turn around and say he's making them now because he wants us to do badly. That is an insult to the guy.

Bang on

The truth is the players aren't good enough.
Yes Rafa has done some strange things but we all know Keane cannot play the lone striker role, everyone on here has been slating him so if Torres was struggling and he didn't want to risk another hamstring injury then putting babel up front is something loads of posters on here have been crying out for.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the facts say that in the last 4 or 5 games or so we have had approx 60% of the possession in each game and failed to win them. That is the players not the manager, everyone was wanking over Alonso but he was **** in the recent games, Babel has started the last few and done absolutely nothing, Keane done nothing virtually all season, I know someone will point out that Rafa bought them but did he?? the farce with Keane shows that maybe he didn't.
If you have the amount of possession we do against Stoke, Fulham, Everton, Wigan etc.. etc.. we should win.
442, 4231 means **** all, we played 442 against Everton and were rubbish so don't spout ****e about holding midfielders.
A team containing Torres, Gerrard, Kuyt, Babel, Riera, Alonso, Mascher, Keane whoever should be able to win games with the amount of time we spend in possession.
Rafa sends us out to draw and lose deliberately - do me a ****ing favour why don't we start looking at some of our 'favourite' players contributions not just at the manager.
They are letting themselves down and letting us down.

Absolutely

This has been designed I have no doubt by Benitez - he will possibly feel by damaging our chances at this moment would in the long term, if he thinks he has the backing - which he shouldn't, he would be able to gain more transfer control, more than any other manager in the Premiership.

You can't seriously be saying that a manager would try to gain more control at a club by deliberately sabotaging the teams chances of winning the league, and putting himself in danger of being sacked. Are you?

Honestly, there's a section of our fans need to take a long hard look at themselves. God forbid that the reason we might be failing on the pitch of late is because of old fashioned ideas like errr, tactics not working, players not performing, or the manager making well intentioned but ultimately wrong decisions. ****, no, that can't be it, Rafa must be making sure we fail in our title bid to prove a point And he was seen eating dinner last night with Shergar, Lord Lucan and several aliens from the planet Optimus 6.

[Joe King]

You can't seriously be saying that a manager would try to gain more control at a club by deliberately sabotaging the teams chances of winning the league, and putting himself in danger of being sacked. Are you?

Honestly, there's a section of our fans need to take a long hard look at themselves. God forbid that the reason we might be failing on the pitch of late is because of old fashioned ideas like errr, tactics not working, players not performing, or the manager making well intentioned but ultimately wrong decisions. ****, no, that can't be it, Rafa must be making sure we fail in our title bid to prove a point And he was seen eating dinner last night with Shergar, Lord Lucan and several aliens from the planet Optimus 6.

Its a calculated risk Benitez has made in order to gain control. He feels he has the backing of the fans, well he has some backing and of course Dear old Tom, so whose to question him? The game against Wigan proved that he can whatever he wants and no one will dare question him as a Liverpool supporter especially substituting Steven Gerrard for Robbie Keane. Its as if he was saying to Parry or whoever, 'you want Keane, well I'll take off Gerrard then and here's two fingers as well'

Someone playing political mindgames in order to gain control of a football club is seriously damaging and asking for trouble. Do I think he can deliver the title ever at Liverpool? No. Do I think he should be given an extension? No, he hasn't proved himself in the 'bread and butter'.